Cyprus-Forum.com

[T_C]

I know!! Following the developments in Turkey is like watching an action packed film....

I can't wait for the next set of news installments.

I am eagerly awaiting the outcome of all this...

[bigOz]

IDIOT? IDIOTS ARE ALL GCs and their leadership which, despite they are dealing with an invasion army in North they continue to negotiate for ridiculous solutions and helping the funny state in North to survive and increase the life standard in all respects.

What can we do for the time being? We're all holding our breath waiting for "Mother Greece" to come out with her military might and liberate the enslaved "Mycenean" island!

...AND AT SAME TIME MAMY!!!AMERICA WILL LEBERATE KURDS IN SOUTHEAST TURKEY!!!!!

Nevertheless your post is just an approval of the fact that what exist in NC as "state" is a result of an invation and power of guns.Even USA had the FAR WEST but life is continue and always changing!!!!

Was you one of the thugs waving EOKA banners in that football game on the Greek side few weeks back? You sure sound like it.

And what with the Kurds - you sound like your Kurdish mates you imported to your side based on "your enmy is my friend" mentality - next they'll claim the rest of the island as Kurdistan.

Just get this one straight you sick F*ck! There was never ever a country by the name of Kurdistan that existed anywhere within today's Turkey's borders - IN ANY HISTORY BOOK IN THE WORLD. Some recent publications, as a direct result of propaganda by the West based on bad intentions, depict areas moved around by Kurdish nomads as Kurdistan, but there is no history behind it whatsoever.

Kurds of Turkey living in South East today do not support PKK and have no desires for independence. They are prospering very fast, with motorways, dams, schools, new housing growing up every day. Few months ago PKK bombed their own kind in the same area, hoping to terrorise them into support. It would have worked in the past, because they would have blamed it on the Turkish army and gained recruits. But that is no more because of the advances in media reporting and Internet. All foreign reporters see the truth within hours of an event.

The only terrorist activity currently in Turkey (by PKK) is imported from Iraq and Iran, and not home produced. With Greece entering EU and stopping their support to them, Russia deciding the same because of warnings from Turkey, and Iraq Kurdistan's no desire for any land from Turkey (or conflict with Turkish forces) PKK are really and truly fucked! South Cyprus must be one of the only places that is a sanctuary for them. Their leader was arrested in Africa by the Turkish Special Forces and brought home like a dog - and this dog had a Cypriot diplomatic passport on him! I hear a lot of bombs keep going off in the Greek side - good luck to you and your guests, more of a reason why we should stick to our federal states if and when there is a solution.

Turkish army hunted the PKK dogs in the mountains of the East and practically exterminated them - the only country to win against terrorism militarily. Now, because of the political vacuum in that part of Iraq, some opportunist bastards are being used again to rekindle the PKK problem. They are much weaker then what they were and are being exterminated on a daily basis before they have a chance to grow up. If you like I'll start posting weekly reports on the number of newly formed PKK hideouts and terrorists destroyed in South East by the military. They have not got a chance in hell!

As for America - they could not even fight the unequipped rebels of Iraq never mind the fully equipped and modernized million members of the Turkish army. To even suggest that America would even consider such a thing would be total stupidity. They'll attack Turkey after they deal with Iran I hope! After Iran told them to fuck off, they've now gone back with their tails between their legs to "negotiate" - with the Mullahs that is!
"America will liberate Kurds in South East Turkey" what a load of crab from what seems to be a totally misguided ignorant thug!

[Diogenes]

Perhaps we should just ignore BigOz and his "grandmother" theories, and continue with more serious discussion with whoever is interested. He obviously does not have the knowledge, and lacks basic principles of conversation (just look at the language he uses).

Anyway, for the rest of the people, because i really want to be very clear in what i say and mean:

My argument implied only this:

Whether or not the Chirokitians were the ancestors of the GC's
today, they CANNOT be the ancestors of the TC's for the simple
reason that Turks or TC's did NOT exist 10,000 BC. That's all.
Do you disagree with that?? Present evidence of Turkish or TC
presence or culture back then. The burden of proof is on YOU.
(How difficult is this to understand?? )


Now, here is how his argument fails as well for a different reason:

Independent of the Chirokitian decentants ,etc, since the Mycenaeans settled the island 4,000 ago, didn't they left descendants on the island? Obviously YES, so why can i not, and other GC's, claim that we are descendants of those Greeks (which we obviously are, since we still speak their language) ? In other words, all the Greek descendants of the ancient Greeks do not count as Cypriots for BigOz?

Well, once again. Just because the TC's have an identity crisis, and desperately look for historical, and otherwise, roots, (since clearly don't want to be called Turks although they are, and they can't qualify for Chirokitians since the latter are older) that doesn't mean we Greeks from Cyprus should fall in that confusion.

Please, present arguments, not emotional cries...

[Get Real!]

Perhaps we should just ignore BigOz and his "grandmother" theories, and continue with more serious discussion with whoever is interested. He obviously does not have the knowledge, and lacks basic principles of conversation (just look at the language he uses).

Anyway, for the rest of the people, because i really want to be very clear in what i say and mean:

My argument implied only this:

Whether or not the Chirokitians were the ancestors of the GC's
today, they CANNOT be the ancestors of the TC's for the simple
reason that Turks or TC's did NOT exist 10,000 BC. That's all.
Do you disagree with that?? Present evidence of Turkish or TC
presence or culture back then. The burden of proof is on YOU.
(How difficult is this to understand?? )


Now, here is how his argument fails as well for a different reason:

Independent of the Chirokitian decentants ,etc, since the Mycenaeans settled the island 4,000 ago, didn't they left descendants on the island? Obviously YES, so why can i not, and other GC's, claim that we are descendants of those Greeks (which we obviously are, since we still speak their language) ? In other words, all the Greek descendants of the ancient Greeks do not count as Cypriots for BigOz?

Well, once again. Just because the TC's have an identity crisis, and desperately look for historical, and otherwise, roots, (since clearly don't want to be called Turks although they are, and they can't qualify for Chirokitians since the latter are older) that doesn't mean we Greeks from Cyprus should fall in that confusion.

Please, present arguments, not emotional cries...

No Diogenes this is what you originally said that started this issue so don't lie:

You said: "Cyprus existed before Greece in case you did not know , we have a history that goes back more than 6000 year".
Do you have any evidence backing your (this) claim???????? If not, do not waste our time with emotional cries. The recorded history we have as of now (and don't worry, i do not base my sources on American books, if that's what you worry about), shows that the Mycenean Greeks were the first (known to us) people that settled here. We still speak their Greek language. Do you have any other evidence of "Cypriots" that lived in the island, who were non-greeks, and we descent from?? Please present the evidence NOW, otherwise do not tell us stories of Halima...

It's pointless to discuss whether or not TC's existed prior to 1571 so therefore there is nothing to discuss as far as their ancestors are concerned which are none other than the Ottomans or whoever else existed before them in Anatolia.

With regards to whether or not YOU are of Mycenaean origin well that's something we'll never know unfortunately but it is SAFER TO ASSUME that most indigenous people of Cyprus descended from their own kind which must have been greater in number than any visitor/invader that ever landed here.

Almost every country has been invaded by invited and uninvited people but the locals are always far greater in number and do out-survive the foreigners and Cyprus is a classic case of that.

[Diogenes]

Dear GetReal,

I do NOT lie...so please read more carefully what i said in red.

Do you see the 1st sentence in quotations (in red)?? This are the words of someone else and i mentioned them, it was not my words. That's why i quote them. After the quote are my words...

Did you read my argument in my last post? With what you said, you don't really discredit that argument.

According to the evidence we have, we have more reasons to believe that we the Greeks of Cyprus descent from the way more numerous Greeks that settled the island (whether Mycenaeans, Achaeans, Ionians, etc,) than the 300 indigenous people (the Chirokitians) who lived there, and we know nothing about them (where from the Greeks we preserved the language etc).
In other words, HOW can one claim that we descent from X, if we have absolutely no information about X to associate ourselves to ??
Now, that, can go for both GC's and TC's ? But for the case of TC's, it's even worse because they didn't even exist back then. The GC's existed (as Greeks), but we are not sure whether we relate to Chirokitians, because, as i said, we know nothing about the Chirokitians (maybe they were Greeks too, maybe not). Hence, we naturally conclude (contrary to what you said) that we descent from those Greeks, considering the fact that we speak Greek, etc.

[Diogenes]

Continuing from above:

Now, to be honest with you, I really don't understand why most of you
panic, when someone speaks of different nationalities, etc?

Does this imply that it is impossible for GC's and TC's to live together? Probably not, as far as each side respect each other, and understand and embrace their differences. I do believe, though, that it would be difficault (as i said elsewhere), because TC's are not likely to respect the majority rights, and GC's are confused in many issues as well.

I do think that the TC's are in a bit bigger dilemma, though, since on the one hand they have to accept a minority status in a re-unification solution, and on the other they cannot really sustain an independent north state (Turkey will never let them really be independent). The above, on the contrary, is not a dillema for the GC's.

[miltiades]

Could we possibly be Cypriots ? I mean pigs born in pig sties are pigs , chickens are hens , and donkeys are asses , are we not worthy of our birth right ?

[Diogenes]

Of course you can...but as of now, there are two kinds of Cypriots: Greeks and Turks.

It's like when Americans say they are Americans. American, just like Cypriot, indicates people that have the American citizenship, but they can be of English, Chinese, Irish, African, Spanish, etc, descent. Spanish went first, then the Africans, etc.
Does this prevent them from living together? NO. But, at least they are not delusional to say they have a common ancestor, etc, like some of the people in this site.

Now, i know some will say that the only TRUE Americans are the Native American Indians, and that's is absolutely true. We know about it, about them, they are still there, etc.

And then one can also say perhaps the only true Cypriot were the indigenous people living there first (the Chirokitians), and it is also true. But, the difference is that we know nothing about them, they don't exist anymore, etc, and the ones that are still in existence are the ones of Greek and Turkish decent. But, one more time: It is possible that even the Chirokitians were Greeks, or related to Greeks, or not. What is definitely NOT the case, is that the Chirokitians have any relation what so ever with the TC's. The latter, show up relatively recently in history, and GC's should not fall in the trap in giving them older historical roots as they claim.
They do that for political reasons (altering history), it is convenient for them, the same way the Skopians claim that they relate to the ancient Greek Macedonians, in order to gain political advantage by ascribing to them selves history.

[bigOz]

Diogenes wrote:

Perhaps we should just ignore BigOz and his "grandmother" theories, and continue with more serious discussion with whoever is interested. He obviously does not have the knowledge, and lacks basic principles of conversation (just look at the language he uses).

If you care to look at the quotes you will understand why your reply was inappropriate because I was not replying to you post! Or are you both Epsilon and Diogones having an argument with yourself?

Furthermore you are welcome to comment on any of my theoiries anytime you like - but not out of context as you have referred to here! I do not lack any principles of conversation and such remarks will only invite an insulting response in kind.

If you think it will be a good eticket to say to you "I would like to make love to you if you do not mind old chap!" after you have just insulted me and my intelligence - you are wrong! I will tell you straight "F*CK YOU!"

And please let's put to test what "knowledge" it is that you know more than I, and I "lack" Socrates! Perhaps you should learn to read more carefully before replying blindly to posts...

As for your thesis on Greekness, I do not see anything in my post that referred to this subject - so what the f*ck are you going on about?

Now that you've brought me into the subject, all I can say is I agree with Get Real's comment

It's pointless to discuss whether or not TC's existed prior to 1571 so therefore there is nothing to discuss as far as their ancestors are concerned which are none other than the Ottomans or whoever else existed before them in Anatolia.

Forget selected parts of history (because history to some GCs is everything in the past MINUS 1960 to 1974???). The truth is Turkish Cypriots exist, they are an ethnic minority in Cyprus with political rights as agreed by past Greek inhabitants, they have the right to self determination if attacked, and currently TRNC is a reality whether you like it or not and recognise it or not! The important question is WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? Or better still what CAN you do about it.

The way I see it GCs have tried all they can in the international arena and it has not worked! You'll know so why when you see everyday, the TRNC flag inscribed on the Kyrenia ranges. No waffle about history which we can discuss till doomsday will change that fact. So where do we go from here? Work for a united Cyprus republic and put aside the nationalistic feelings about our origins, or allow time to take its toll and let the island be divided permanently in its current state?

[Diogenes]

Dear BigOz,

i do not have the habit to insult people while i argue, and if i have offended you in any way, my apologies. But, look at the language you use (for example, "F... you", etc), and look at the language i use.

Now, I am sad to see that you either don't really read my posts, or you read them and you don't get my arguments, or you choose not to understand them.
That is why, you or others, never comment or reply back to the specific points i raise, and you prefer to talk in general

My points were very specific, and no matter how much you, and others, scream, yell, react, or complain, about them, still i haven't seen one of you really rebutt my arguments.

There are things i agree with you, for example that the TC's exist, they have rights, etc. Have i ever denied that??
But there are some things that are indisputable, whether you, me, or others like it or not. For example, that there is NO such thing as common ancestor (Chirokitians) between the GC's and the TC's (it at least fails for the TC's, for the reasons i explain for the nth-time). DO YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT?

I also agree with you that there is a reality now that we all have to face, in other words things happened, so let's move on to solutions. You asked are we going to move for a united Cyprus or separate, etc.
I already expressed my view on that matter before: I see the division of
Cyprus a better solution than re-unification, unless a re-unification will be
realistic (in other words, for TC's to understand that they are the minority and NOT the majority).

As i also said, TC's should stop trying to scare us about separating and becoming independent, because it doesn't really work. We know very well that you CANNOT sustain independence, because Turkey will never let you. So, the dilemma is more on you:
Do you want to stop your nationalistic nonsense and re-unite (with your rights respected, etc) and live like civilized people, part of EU, with decent salaries, etc, or do you want to live in the shadow of Turkey, with them controlling your politics, elections, media, etc ???