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Rebuild the trust between the Turkish and Greek Cypriots

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby Piratis » Tue May 15, 2007 10:20 am

Zan, you are obviously clueless about the real civilizations in the world history. I do not blame you for that, since apparently in your school books the whole history was about Ottomans invading others and stealing their lands.

Read a bit more history and there you will find that cities were in fact funded in uninhabited areas, that such things like sciences and philosophy were created, and that great civilizations like the Greek civilization affected the whole world because of their greatness and not by brute force, like the Turks try to spread themselves.

Nobody said that Greeks didn't make wars, and surely Alexander the great was a conqueror. The difference is that those things are just minor points in the Greek history. If it was just conquests, wars and nothing else then they wouldn't call it the great Greek civilization. Such term would not exist, in the same way that such thing as "Turkish civilization" does not exist, despite the many conquests and wars done by the Turks.
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Postby bigOz » Tue May 15, 2007 4:52 pm

Piratis wrote:Zan, you are obviously clueless about the real civilizations in the world history. I do not blame you for that, since apparently in your school books the whole history was about Ottomans invading others and stealing their lands.

Read a bit more history and there you will find that cities were in fact funded in uninhabited areas, that such things like sciences and philosophy were created, and that great civilizations like the Greek civilization affected the whole world because of their greatness and not by brute force, like the Turks try to spread themselves.

Nobody said that Greeks didn't make wars, and surely Alexander the great was a conqueror. The difference is that those things are just minor points in the Greek history. If it was just conquests, wars and nothing else then they wouldn't call it the great Greek civilization. Such term would not exist, in the same way that such thing as "Turkish civilization" does not exist, despite the many conquests and wars done by the Turks.


I do not agree with many of the points you raised above except that I do agree Greeks have left a great mark in the history of civilisation - it would be foolish to deny that. But history aside, it does not absolve them from doing wrongs in the ceturies that followed does it? Neither does it mean all Greeks are civilised. Turkic civilisation does exist, and recent archeologic discoveries have shown they existed long before many of the civilisations in the west.

Because of their choice of religion the Turks have always been trated unfavourably by the Western historians, while for similar but more reasons Greeks have been showerd with political and geographic gifts by the West. So much so they did not even need to do much fighting for themselves. Turks always had to do all their fighting against many allied forces all the time. I think it would be a great marriage if Greeks and Turks were put into a melting pot and dissolved into one race - we could then have a very strong civilised nation perhaps? :lol:
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Postby zan » Tue May 15, 2007 6:16 pm

bigOz wrote:
Piratis wrote:Zan, you are obviously clueless about the real civilizations in the world history. I do not blame you for that, since apparently in your school books the whole history was about Ottomans invading others and stealing their lands.

Read a bit more history and there you will find that cities were in fact funded in uninhabited areas, that such things like sciences and philosophy were created, and that great civilizations like the Greek civilization affected the whole world because of their greatness and not by brute force, like the Turks try to spread themselves.

Nobody said that Greeks didn't make wars, and surely Alexander the great was a conqueror. The difference is that those things are just minor points in the Greek history. If it was just conquests, wars and nothing else then they wouldn't call it the great Greek civilization. Such term would not exist, in the same way that such thing as "Turkish civilization" does not exist, despite the many conquests and wars done by the Turks.


I do not agree with many of the points you raised above except that I do agree Greeks have left a great mark in the history of civilisation - it would be foolish to deny that. But history aside, it does not absolve them from doing wrongs in the ceturies that followed does it? Neither does it mean all Greeks are civilised. Turkic civilisation does exist, and recent archeologic discoveries have shown they existed long before many of the civilisations in the west.

Because of their choice of religion the Turks have always been trated unfavourably by the Western historians, while for similar but more reasons Greeks have been showerd with political and geographic gifts by the West. So much so they did not even need to do much fighting for themselves. Turks always had to do all their fighting against many allied forces all the time. I think it would be a great marriage if Greeks and Turks were put into a melting pot and dissolved into one race - we could then have a very strong civilised nation perhaps? :lol:



Do you mind if we leave Piratis out of the pot cause he will only taint the race. He knows nothing about me but speaks as if he does.

Piratis.
I was educated in the UK you great clutz. My education about Greeks was all about conquests and fighting and the rediculous gods that instigated these wars. You know, the ones that you guys like to put all the blame on like that of EOKA-B. I have never read a book or seen a film or a documentary in which the Greeks are portrayed as peace loving nomads that settled on islands and gave there love (unforced) to the natives. If you know of one please let me know. No comedies now. Now what is that film recently...Oh I know...300 wasn't it. Have a look...it is enough tomake you proud :cry: :lol:
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Postby denizaksulu » Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:44 pm

What will forum members think of this article in todays Cyprus Mail. Are the GCs really changing their minds as the article suggests. I am sure we would like to hear from the ardent Tpop supporters on their views.



[u][b]Why don’t we just negotiate partition? [/b][/u]
By Loucas Charalambous

THE DEVELOPMENTS we have seen in the last few weeks regarding Greek Cypriot properties in the north and the campaign against refugees, highlight our government’s culpability for the extremely difficult situation we are faced with. Our current predicament is the direct result of the idiotic and sterile policy of non-settlement that President Papadopoulos has been zealously pursuing.

Recent events expose the utopian nature of Papadopoulos’ analysis, which he often explains to Presidential Palace visitors along the following lines: All the damage that would have been caused by the passing of time had now been done. And given that under present conditions we cannot achieve a settlement that would be an improvement on the current state of affairs, it is preferable to leave things as they are until the opportunity for a better settlement arises. This is the policy of ‘staying as we are’, which has the added bonus of allowing Papadopoulos to stay at the Presidential Palace.

But it has become plain for everyone to see that this policy does not create more favourable conditions and we cannot ‘stay as we are’. ‘Staying as we are’ does not depend just on us, because we are not in control of things. We have no control over how many Greek Cypriot properties are developed or sold to foreigners in the north, nor over how many Turks arrive from the mainland and settle there. In 20 to 30 years’ time, without a settlement, the population of the occupied area could be bigger than that of the Republic, in which case our neighbours would be demanding respect for the wishes of the majority. And then, we will not ‘stay as we are’.

Instead of recognising this nightmarish prospect, our deputies and television stations are more concerned about playing the big patriots, vilifying the hapless Greek Cypriots who have applied to the Turkish Cypriot compensation committee in the hope of receiving something for their properties in the north. They have the right to do so.

This column has written many times that every day that passes without a settlement brings us closer to partition, a two-state solution based on the current dividing line. Someone could well argue that the two-state solution is the choice of the majority of Greek Cypriots, as recent opinion polls have shown. Why have we not tried to negotiate such a settlement? Rather than wasting their time on interminable populist debates and engaging in defiant posturing, our deputies would have been much more productive if they dealt with this real issue.

As the majority of the people of this peculiar country want a two-state solution, this is the only option left for settling the issue of properties. Boundaries must be agreed, then the two states would recognise each other and we could have some territory returned. Those with property in the territory that would be returned would get their land back. The remainder of the properties would either have to be exchanged with Turkish Cypriot properties in the south or the owners compensated.

This is the simplest and speediest settlement which also has a big advantage – Papadopoulos would not be opposed to it, as it would not envisage his removal from the presidency, as the Annan plan did. It is the only settlement that would also be supported by the news media, even by Phileleftheros, which has suddenly started worrying about developments. The paper expressed concern about “dangerous windows of recognition” opened by the last decision of the Council of Europe, and called on the government to “go on the counter-offensive”.

These are the very same people who had been telling us for the last four years that our government was scoring goals all over the world. And we have still to go on the counter-offensive? What will happen in a year’s time, when the European Court crushes the decisions of our Supreme Court, which ruled that Turkish Cypriot properties in the south could not be returned to their owners? The Turkish Cypriots would demand their properties in the south, and there would be nothing we could do to stop them getting them. That is when we would go on the defensive again, and still fail to stop the avalanche of goals that we would concede.




Copyright © Cyprus Mail 2007
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Postby DT. » Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:02 pm

zan wrote:
bigOz wrote:
Piratis wrote:Zan, you are obviously clueless about the real civilizations in the world history. I do not blame you for that, since apparently in your school books the whole history was about Ottomans invading others and stealing their lands.

Read a bit more history and there you will find that cities were in fact funded in uninhabited areas, that such things like sciences and philosophy were created, and that great civilizations like the Greek civilization affected the whole world because of their greatness and not by brute force, like the Turks try to spread themselves.

Nobody said that Greeks didn't make wars, and surely Alexander the great was a conqueror. The difference is that those things are just minor points in the Greek history. If it was just conquests, wars and nothing else then they wouldn't call it the great Greek civilization. Such term would not exist, in the same way that such thing as "Turkish civilization" does not exist, despite the many conquests and wars done by the Turks.


I do not agree with many of the points you raised above except that I do agree Greeks have left a great mark in the history of civilisation - it would be foolish to deny that. But history aside, it does not absolve them from doing wrongs in the ceturies that followed does it? Neither does it mean all Greeks are civilised. Turkic civilisation does exist, and recent archeologic discoveries have shown they existed long before many of the civilisations in the west.

Because of their choice of religion the Turks have always been trated unfavourably by the Western historians, while for similar but more reasons Greeks have been showerd with political and geographic gifts by the West. So much so they did not even need to do much fighting for themselves. Turks always had to do all their fighting against many allied forces all the time. I think it would be a great marriage if Greeks and Turks were put into a melting pot and dissolved into one race - we could then have a very strong civilised nation perhaps? :lol:



Do you mind if we leave Piratis out of the pot cause he will only taint the race. He knows nothing about me but speaks as if he does.

Piratis.
I was educated in the UK you great clutz. My education about Greeks was all about conquests and fighting and the rediculous gods that instigated these wars. You know, the ones that you guys like to put all the blame on like that of EOKA-B. I have never read a book or seen a film or a documentary in which the Greeks are portrayed as peace loving nomads that settled on islands and gave there love (unforced) to the natives. If you know of one please let me know. No comedies now. Now what is that film recently...Oh I know...300 wasn't it. Have a look...it is enough tomake you proud :cry: :lol:


actually Zan 300 is about the SPartans being attacked by a foreign invading army and fighting back.
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Postby denizaksulu » Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:55 am

Piratis; For Christ sake, It is obvious that you have an issue with the Ottomans. Maybe it was the fall of Byzantium which you cannot deal with. Your are like an annoying mossie in someones ear constantly ranting the same old tune. No body can change the events in history. These things did happen. Tell me where it did not. Where there was a void peoples will move in and fill that void. It is obvious that you have been brainwashed with the Ottoman Empires' advances into Asia Minor and Europe.
Give is a rest, and spend more of your energies towards a peaceful, meaningful conclusion to the Cyprus problem. Dont be so irritating. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Postby zan » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:02 am

DT. wrote:
zan wrote:
bigOz wrote:
Piratis wrote:Zan, you are obviously clueless about the real civilizations in the world history. I do not blame you for that, since apparently in your school books the whole history was about Ottomans invading others and stealing their lands.

Read a bit more history and there you will find that cities were in fact funded in uninhabited areas, that such things like sciences and philosophy were created, and that great civilizations like the Greek civilization affected the whole world because of their greatness and not by brute force, like the Turks try to spread themselves.

Nobody said that Greeks didn't make wars, and surely Alexander the great was a conqueror. The difference is that those things are just minor points in the Greek history. If it was just conquests, wars and nothing else then they wouldn't call it the great Greek civilization. Such term would not exist, in the same way that such thing as "Turkish civilization" does not exist, despite the many conquests and wars done by the Turks.


I do not agree with many of the points you raised above except that I do agree Greeks have left a great mark in the history of civilisation - it would be foolish to deny that. But history aside, it does not absolve them from doing wrongs in the ceturies that followed does it? Neither does it mean all Greeks are civilised. Turkic civilisation does exist, and recent archeologic discoveries have shown they existed long before many of the civilisations in the west.

Because of their choice of religion the Turks have always been trated unfavourably by the Western historians, while for similar but more reasons Greeks have been showerd with political and geographic gifts by the West. So much so they did not even need to do much fighting for themselves. Turks always had to do all their fighting against many allied forces all the time. I think it would be a great marriage if Greeks and Turks were put into a melting pot and dissolved into one race - we could then have a very strong civilised nation perhaps? :lol:



Do you mind if we leave Piratis out of the pot cause he will only taint the race. He knows nothing about me but speaks as if he does.

Piratis.
I was educated in the UK you great clutz. My education about Greeks was all about conquests and fighting and the rediculous gods that instigated these wars. You know, the ones that you guys like to put all the blame on like that of EOKA-B. I have never read a book or seen a film or a documentary in which the Greeks are portrayed as peace loving nomads that settled on islands and gave there love (unforced) to the natives. If you know of one please let me know. No comedies now. Now what is that film recently...Oh I know...300 wasn't it. Have a look...it is enough tomake you proud :cry: :lol:


actually Zan 300 is about the SPartans being attacked by a foreign invading army and fighting back.


Always the bridesmaid never the bride :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby EPSILON » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:52 am

denizaksulu wrote:Piratis; For Christ sake, It is obvious that you have an issue with the Ottomans. Maybe it was the fall of Byzantium which you cannot deal with. Your are like an annoying mossie in someones ear constantly ranting the same old tune. No body can change the events in history. These things did happen. Tell me where it did not. Where there was a void peoples will move in and fill that void. It is obvious that you have been brainwashed with the Ottoman Empires' advances into Asia Minor and Europe.
Give is a rest, and spend more of your energies towards a peaceful, meaningful conclusion to the Cyprus problem. Dont be so irritating. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Regards
DA


Peacefull solutions can be achieved betwen democratic countries. If one part of the problem is a military controlled state , living with dreams of empire, such solutions look to be at least very difficult

And before you reply that Turkey is a democratic state i wish to emphasise that the main problem is that it has a dectatorship and the big part of population does not realise it.

Can anybody from "Democratic "Turkey explain to the board why Gul was not nominated as canditate for president? Maybe because of the democratic system of Turkish state.
Can anybody from "Democratic" Turkey count the times the military staff intervened in government's decisions?
Can anybody finally tell us a decision on Cyprus problem made directly by Tallat without the written authorization of the invasion army?

Peacefull solution: to discuss with whom? Peacefull but fair solution can be achieved only if GCs accept all the plans of the invasion forces.

This is the present situation
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Postby humanist » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:20 am

firstly I extend my welcome to you mem101. Secondly thank you for your kind words and encouragement.

What do I think about your sugestion? I do not agree with it and it all comes back to trust. I do not trust that once recognition is given to trnc that there will be unification and I doubt whether a great number of greek speaking Cypriots do either. I also do not believe in the two separate political and economic systetms that you propose. I believe if there is to be unification then there needs to be a full complete union between all Cypriots and all institutions and social life.

However what I see feasible in the first instance is for Turkey to withdraw all troops, UN to provide the safety needed for Turkish speaking Cypriots, prior to that legislation to heavily inciminate any Cypriot using political or other violence against people living in the north (currently occupied area), upon the withdrawl of Turkish troops there needs to be a dismantling of the national guard of cyprus.

The money saved by the national guards dismantling, goes into restoring Turkish speaking Cypriot property in the south for those who wish to move back. Secondly a register for those Greek speaking Cypriots who do not wish to return or are happy to accept compensation for their properties currently occupied by Turkish speaking Cypriots (this is to allow for those Turkish speaking Cypriots wishing not to return to the south particularly those from Tochni and other similar villages.

In brief this is what I am suggesting and I am no politician so my simplistic view has other implications or may be it doesn't.

Lastly I think we need to use this time to create a beautiful nation and some time lines are necessary because as we have seen so far 33 years have gone by and no change has occured.

Of-course I believe that nothing will change because Turkey has a hold on Cyprus and is not likely to let go.
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Postby denizaksulu » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:52 am

Hi Dear Epsilon; May be we are all right. Answering your poser, maybe the USA is pulling Turkeys strings, because they do not want any thing to do with Mr Gul, in case he turns Turkey in to a Islamic fundamentalists paradise. Even you, certainly not me would welcome such a paradise.
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