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Should the EU become a superstate?

Benefits and problems from the EU membership.

Should the European Union become one nation?

Yes
10
67%
No
5
33%
 
Total votes : 15

Postby Sotos » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:16 pm

I think it is not just UK that is afraid to lose its sovereignty. I think it is all other countries as well. I think it will not be easy. Maybe Cyprus will be the only country that a majority would support this because of the problem we have and since our sovereignty is violated anyways. Better to lose sovereignty to EU than Turkey!
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Postby dancingbear » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:48 pm

Simon,
if Britain refuses to become a part of the United States of Europe; Europe can unite without her.

I do hope they do, not one person within my circle of friends wants this to happen, trade yes but the rest forget it.

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Postby Simon » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:58 pm

DancingBear perhaps when you say this you are overlooking one thing. If the EU becomes one nation without the UK, where would that leave Britain? Britain has always enjoyed being amongst the world's most influential. However, with the US, EU, China and India as the major powers of the world; Britain, not involved in any such Union, will become relatively unimportant, ignored and out in the cold; perhaps losing its place as a permanent member of the UN Security Council along with many other benefits it currently enjoys. I actually believe the UK is perfectly placed to be at the heart of a United States of Europe, which would without doubt be the new world superpower if such a Union took place. I say this because I am confident that the language of the UK (English) will be the natural choice for the Union; and London will be its most influential and important City. I fear however, due to some regressive attitudes in Britain, a great chance will be lost.
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Postby rotate » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:16 pm

It's not just the British who are sceptical about the present EU.
The Irish who did very well out of EU subsidies when they first joined find now that they are cash contributors, something that was not expected by them for years to come. Ill feeling also arose when they voted NO for further EU expansion in a referenda only to told that they must vote again or if you prefer vote again until you say yes!
The French, like the EU providing the Common Agricultural Policy continues to the detriment of poor third world countries and French employment is protected. For observers of French politics it was not difficult to spot how quickly after the French electorate said NO to the EU Constitution that President Chirac attacked Britains EU refund, baiting a foolish Tony Blair into a silly 'tit for tat' argument about the CAP losing sight of the core argument of European evolution and the rejection of the written constitution by the French and Dutch eletorate.
Like the French the Spanish are deeply disturbed at other EU member state companies buying into their power generation/distribution private/state controlled industries, thus the corrosive national protectionism/pride that if we are honest we all rise to, destroys something that might have been.

Where will Europes final borders end, is membership open to all? Proposed Turkish membership has sent shivers of electoral loss fear through many European heads of state, the question of Cyprus and human rights providing a perfect excuse for some notable political grand standing by those who formerly only offered less than convincing platitudes on these subjects. Some speak of the EU extending into Russia, the Lebanon Syria Israel and hopefully Palestine if these desperate people ever get justice and are allowed a nation state, how is this to be viewed would we welcome these nations or would the hand of welcome only be extended to those with vast resources of mineral wealth?

Churchill's good idea of a 'United States of Europe' (I prefer just plain Europe) at the end of WW2 to stop internicine warfare and as a bulwark against the USSR has been bankrupted by stupid politicians who play the nationalist card at home but who love a European photo call as they believe it makes them 'world players' in the eyes of their home electorates.

Europe lacks leadership and political transparency, until we get it we will rumble on from one individual national crisis to another with the dubious benefit of being able to blame Europe in general, our geographic neigbours in particular and the rights and wrongs of the past.
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Postby dancingbear » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:45 pm

Simon,
Why do you think we need to join to be better, Switzerland is not a member and they do ok.

Winston Churchill is quoted as advocating a United States of Europe in 1953, when asked if Britain should be a member state, he replied: 'We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised.
'We are associated, but not absorbed, and should a European statesman address us and say "shall we speak for thee?" we should reply: "Nay sir, for we dwell among our own people
."

Still relevant today.

Why should anyone want to vote for the most corrupt, unelected bunch of money grabbing swindlers i will never know.

They move for thee days every month(at a cost of millions) from Brussels to Stassburg just to keep the sodding French happy.

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Postby Simon » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:56 pm

I do not believe Winston Churchill's comments are relevant anymore. He was talking in a different time. You mentioned Switzerland; however, you seem to fail to realise that Britain; standing on its own, is no longer a major player on the international scene. Hence we stand with the US. Do you want that to continue considering their poor foreign policy? Maybe we should align with the EU instead? Our voice will soon be irrelevant in world affairs with the rise of India and China; unless we progress. I see progression within the EU. Switzerland is subjected to a completely different set of circumstances to the UK; and therefore cannot be compared.

If you object to the CURRENT way the EU is being run; then this is fair comment. I also believe Europe must change in this regard. However, at the same time, I still favour further integration, with the UK at the heart of it.

Let me throw a quote at you: "United We Stand, Divided We Fall".
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Postby dancingbear » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:12 pm

Simon,

I would sooner align with the USA anyday than with the rotton apples in Europe. You say one Military, seems odd that during the Falklands Belgium refused to help us out with Ammo(and they were bloody in NATO 2) and France sent the Argies Jets and rockets, so much for love thy neighbour. France complained that they needed a 2nd resolution before they would attack Iraq knowing damm well they would veto it, yet 2/3 months later sent their own troops into a African nation to help overthrow a Dictator(thats the so called french for you).

I have friends who live in germany and when I was last over few years ago they hated the Euro and the unelected Beurocrats that run and ruin their lives.

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Postby ge0rg10 » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:21 pm

Simon wrote:No, I mean it is being occupied by Turkey. The Republic of Cyprus is a sovereign state and is not occupied by Greece.

You really are boring. Do us all a favour and FECK OFF!!!!


free_cyprus is not saying that the republic of cyprus is not a sovereign state, he is saying that they have decided that because they speak a greek dialect that they should have greece flags everywhere, even at the army place. Further more the British have two bases on cyprus that they are supposed to pay for annually to the RoC but haven’t for 20 years! Turkey is illegally occupying Cyprus but Greece and britian are doing it legally, if you ask me they should all leave Cyprus to the Cypriots.
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Postby Simon » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:40 pm

geOrg, if you have been reading Free_Cyprus posts, repeating the same thing over and over again; that we are slaves and how our current leaders are traitors, then you would not believe RoC is a sovereign state. Hence this is why I stated it was. British bases are here in Cyprus due to a legal agreement. Turkey is not here legally. Greece does not occupy Cyprus. Every Greek person of importance (i.e. officials, military personnel etc) is here due to the permission of the RoC government. This is likely to continue while the island is under ILLEGAL occupation. Seventy-seven percent of the Cypriot people consider themselves ethnically Greek; and therefore, some display Greek flags. The north calls itself Turkish! Until a solution is achieved which breaks down these barriers, this is how it will remain. If the solution is akin to the Annan Plan, it will remain for good. Are you Greek Cypriot geOrg? I couldn't help but notice in a different thread you stated you supported Portugal at Euro 2004 in the final against Greece?
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Postby Simon » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:58 pm

You would rather align with the US; one of the most hated countries in the world? Seriously? The cost of following the US has made Britain a major target for terrorism. Our Foreign Policy has became a joke. You talk about how the EU nations did not help Britain during the Falklands War; let us look at something much more recent. The US does not even allow our Coroners access to relevant details and evidence to identify how our servicemen have died in friendly-fire incidents! Our closest Allies!Remember; The Sun secretly uncovered footage regarding a further friendly-fire incident. The US lied to Britain about the very existence of the tape! Considering the Falklands, was it not the US that refused to fully support Britain originally; and it was only when we decided to go to War, with or without them, that they finally offered us some (although meaningless) support. Was it not the US in WWII that failed to enter the war in favour of the Allies, until they themselves were bombed by Japan? What happened to our special relationship then? Was it not the US that massively weakened Britain following the Suez Crisis, and totally embarrased Britain in front of the world; threatening to sell their reserves of our Sterling to collapse our Currency if we did not comply and withdraw from Egypt? Therefore, in criticising Europe, you seem to imply that the US has always been loyal. The truth is much different.

France sold weapons to Argentina before the Falklands War; so did we. I cannot see your point here. France did not know they were going to attack the Falklands, we didn't even know! With regards to Iraq, France were absolutely right regarding the 2nd resolution. What Britain and America carried out was illegal. If we had followed the French lead, we would not be involved in the mess today called Iraq.

With regards to your last paragraph, I agree that the EU is currently too undemocratic and needs reform. REFORM, not abolishing or withdrawal for Britain. The Euro will grow stronger and I believe nations will grow to love it.
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