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Annan solution - What will *I* gain???

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Guest » Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:29 pm

Mr. Metecyp,

You live in USA? What system do they have there? Federal right? Do they have minorities? Sure they do! If USA is ok for you to live, why Cyprus under a similar constitution will be not?

Sure, we made many mistakes and have learned. Have you seen any other judas? Don't we say all the time that Cyprus belongs to all Cypriots? (TC excluded themselves from Republic of Cyprus, they are free to return any time they want).
So, yes, we made mistakes in the past and will not make any more. So Annan plan has to be improoved to the degree that contains no such mistakes. We are used to live in a free democracy now and there is no way we will return back to something worst and make the same mistakes again.

Do you think Cyprus is the only country that has minorities? The same way minority rights are protected in all other EU countries they will be protected here also. In Cyprus we have other minorities also. Did you see them complaining that we harm them or anything????? Are their rights violated? All this crap that you say is pure propaganda and nothing more!

It seems like you regard south Cyprus as your country and north Cyprus as someone else's country. Your mind has been already divided into two when you think of Cyprus problem. How can you say that Annan plan is worse than current situation when north Cyprus will be a much different place after Annan plan? There might not be too much difference in south Cyprus, but there sure will be huge changes in the north, and if you really believed in one united Cyprus, the changes in the north would be enough for you to vote for Annan plan.


Thats exactly the problem. Annan's plan makes this separation and not me! Do you know any country that will prohibit its citizens to move freely and settle anywhere within its borders that they like? So unfortunately Annan's plan doesn't create a united Cyprus. It creates some strange creation that exists nowhere else in the world to serve the interests of other countries (Turkey, UK, USA etc) but not the interests of the majority of its population.
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Postby Guest » Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:50 pm

There might not be too much difference in south Cyprus, but there sure will be huge changes in the north, and if you really believed in one united Cyprus, the changes in the north would be enough for you to vote for Annan plan


I want to say somthing additional on this quote.

Why should I care about their economical situation and risk to get myself in a worst economical situetion (analyst say that this will be the case for us for at least 2-3 years), when they don't even care for our basic human rights?

Its like they tell us "Hi, we want peace. We want lots of money. What? You want your human rights? Sure, we are your friends and everything, but screw your human rights. Maybe later, if we feel like it, we might give you some, ok?"
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Postby metecyp » Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:55 pm

Dear "Guest",

You live in USA? What system do they have there? Federal right? Do they have minorities? Sure they do! If USA is ok for you to live, why Cyprus under a similar constitution will be not?

Yes, I do live in the USA and yes they do have federation of states here. I did not say that I cannot live in a federal Cyprus, actually I said quite the contrary, I can only live in a federal Cyprus. But you cannot expect the same federal structure of the USA to apply in Cyprus.

I don't know if you know the history of the US, but Americans went through major struggles until this federal system worked. There was a huge civil war in 1800s to abondon slavery. In 1950s-1960s, there was a civil rights movement for equal rights for black people of America and so on.

What I'm trying to say here is this. There was a long struggle to achieve the fine balance between races in America and after trial and error, they found their system. They made mistakes in the past, such as southern states wanting to keep slavery. Now, what you are saying is that let's forget about this process, and say everybody is equal, and everybody has the right to move freely and settle freely. Now, how are you going to assure the minority that their rights won't be affected?

I agree with you say, don't get me wrong. I also want full implementation of human rights in Cyprus. YES I DO. But, I also acknowledge that the rights of the minority should be safe-guarded UNTIL the bridges of trust are built again between the two communities. This is going to be our transition time, this is going to be our time to finely balance the federal structure of Cyprus, do you know what I mean? What America went through was a long process, and now we need to go through this process of adjusting fine balances on both sides. That's why we cannot implement universal human rights right at the moment but it's a target that we all should work for! Does this make sense to you?

same way minority rights are protected in all other EU countries they will be protected here also. In Cyprus we have other minorities also. Did you see them complaining that we harm them or anything????? Are their rights violated? All this crap that you say is pure propaganda and nothing more!

Can't you see how a Turkish Cypriot might not feel completely safe under Greek Cypriot majority? I mean we all know the bad incidents of 1960s-1970s. Why don't you at least try to give some extra rights to assure T/Cs that they won't be harmed and provide them the extra trust needed. The issue here is that T/Cs need assurance from G/Cs that they are equal partners in Cyprus goverment and you cannot even show good will to grant that wish.

Thats exactly the problem. Annan's plan makes this separation and not me! Do you know any country that will prohibit its citizens to move freely and settle anywhere within its borders that they like? So unfortunately Annan's plan doesn't create a united Cyprus.

Annan plan creates a certain degree of seperation and this is necessary to safe-guard rights of T/Cs at least for now. T/Cs need assurances that they are part of this country and part of the new government. I think your problem is you see Annan plan as the final step in Cyprus problem. But as trust and communication channels build between two communities, I am sure some parts of Annan plan will be obselete (useless).

We're saying the same things but I'm being more realistic here. I'm saying that you cannot reach to the target of universal human rights without going through a transitional period and Annan plan provides this transitional period needed. This is a NECESSARY period to get both communities together, to make them feel like copatriots of the same country.

All you need to do is give peace a chance! And peace takes time and effort if you want to implement it right.
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Postby metecyp » Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:10 pm

Dear "Guest"

Why should I care about their economical situation and risk to get myself in a worst economical situetion (analyst say that this will be the case for us for at least 2-3 years), when they don't even care for our basic human rights?
Its like they tell us "Hi, we want peace. We want lots of money. What? You want your human rights? Sure, we are your friends and everything, but screw your human rights. Maybe later, if we feel like it, we might give yo some, ok?

You're making two wrong assumptions here.
1- T/Cs don't care about your basic human rights.
2- T/Cs want peace for money.

First of all, T/Cs do care about basic human rights, actually they're fighting for their own for the past 40 years. Nobody is denying the basic human rights here, but some rights will be limited FOR BOTH SIDES until the two communities reach to the level where being a Greek Cypriot or Turkish Cypriot will not matter. Until that day arrives, there rights that you mentioned have to be differentiated according to the communities.

As I said before, applying universal human rights for everyone in Cyprus regardless of their ethnicity is a dream that we have to work for. But for the time being, we have to go through this process.

Now, do you think this is nonsense? Here's an example from the United States. In the US, they accept approximately 15-20% Afircan Americans to state universities. Since there are much higher percentages of white students applying to universities, the rejection rate is much higher for white students. In other words, an African American student who has lower grades than a white student might get into a university simply because the state universities has a policy accepting 15-20% African Americans each year.

Now is this fair? According to your universal human rights argument, it is not fair at all because people are being accepted or denied to admission to university depending on their race, correct?

But in America this is normal because everybody knows that African American students need to get into the magic circle of being first class citizens, and to do that, they need to get education, and to ensure that they get their education, the American goverment has to deny some successful white students from entering the university.

Does this example clear things for you? American goverment showed its willingness to accept African Americans as first class citizens and to ensure that this is happening, they asked some sacrifice from their white citizens. Because American goverment knows that a country cannot be stable when 20% of the population is under educated, poor, etc.

Now, are you willing to sacrifice some of your rights for a better future for ALL people of Cyprus? Or are you going to insist on YOUR human rights and disregard the other side?
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Postby Guest » Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:15 pm

So instead of learning from world mistakes we have to do them ourselves? Wouldn't be nicer if slavery never existed in the US and if the civil war didn't need to happen? The Annan plan creates an unfair situetion that might lead to such problems. I believe we already had enough of them, we got burned and we have learned. What we need is a solution that will give us hope that those kind of things will not happen again, and not one that will push us to the opposite direction. EU is there, human rights are there and we have to base everything on these.

But even if we agree in a transitional periot. Can you please tell me who will decide when this transitional periot will be over, and when it will be over?

In Cyprus we have the following saying:

Ouden monimoteron tou prosorinou
meaning:
Nothing more permanent than the temporary.

I think knowing the intersts of Turkey, the fact that several settlers will remain in Cyprus, the fact that TC will be able to veto everything, and the fact that Turkey can totally control Turkish Cypriots decisions, you can see that the above saying fits perfectly this situation.
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Postby Guest » Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:30 pm

What you said about African Americans was a joke, right?

We agreed that an 18% minority will have a federal state with land exiting their population percentage and have a certain autonomy etc, and you came here to tell me that African Amricans get some more seats in US universities. Do you understand how ridiculous this sounds?

Even the constitution of 1960 gives more to TC than African Americans will ever get in the US. (if I remember correctly something like 40% of the police force and things like that!!!)

I want human rights for ALL Cypriots. Why you insist that I want them just for myself. Actually since I am not a refugee, my human rights are oppressed much less than many other Cypriots (both GC and TC).

Dear Metecyp, they found us week and they are trying to screw us even more. Thats about it. Pure power politics.
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Postby metecyp » Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:44 pm

So instead of learning from world mistakes we have to do them ourselves? Wouldn't be nicer if slavery never existed in the US and if the civil war didn't need to happen?

Of course nobody wants bad incidents to happen. However, you cannot simply apply what you learn from one situation (eg. America) to another situation (eg. Cyprus). We, all Cypriots, need to go through some experiences and difficulties since our problem is unique!
The Annan plan creates an unfair situetion that might lead to such problems

I assume you mean an unfair situation for G/Cs. And what I'm saying is that you should not see it as a mere unfair situation but rather an unfair situation due to necessity.
EU is there, human rights are there and we have to base everything on these.

T/Cs want to trust G/Cs, they want to feel welcomed, they want to feel part of this country, and they want to feel that they're being listened in goverment matters. Do you understand that? No EU human rights will guarantee this feeling of security. It's up to G/Cs to provide this *extra* needed assurance and you cannot blame T/Cs for needing such assurances after the incidents in 1960s and 1970s. Similarly, I sympathize a G/C when he/she says she does not want Turkish soldiers on the island, because I know that he/she did not have good experiences in regard to Turkish soldiers. We need understanding between two communities here, and this is NOT just a matter of applying EU laws and rights to Cyprus.
But even if we agree in a transitional periot. Can you please tell me who will decide when this transitional periot will be over, and when it will be over?

This is going to be an automatic process. Can you tell me who decided to go from Dark Ages to Renaissance? Nobody, it just happened due to enlighment. As we enlighten and understand each other more, this transitional period will fade away and we'll have an era of peace where someone ethnicity won't matter and then basic human rights for ALL Cypriots could be applied because ethnicity won't be a problem.
I think knowing the intersts of Turkey, the fact that several settlers will remain in Cyprus, the fact that TC will be able to veto everything, and the fact that Turkey can totally control Turkish Cypriots decisions, you can see that the above saying fits perfectly this situation.

All these are legitimate concerns but they all can be overcome by goodwill and trust of two communities. This is not just your side's responsibility but this is both sides' responsibility and we have to work for this TOGETHER. We have to start thinking in terms of two communities, not one. We have to end the division in our minds first before trying to end the physical division of our island.
Last edited by metecyp on Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby metecyp » Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:52 pm

What you said about African Americans was a joke, right?

We agreed that an 18% minority will have a federal state with land exiting their population percentage and have a certain autonomy etc, and you came here to tell me that African Amricans get some more seats in US universities. Do you understand how ridiculous this sounds?

No, I was not joking. I was just trying to give an example where majority gives up some of its rights to accomodate the minority for the welfare of the whole country. You're again trying to apply a situation directly to another situation. I'm trying to draw the similarities between two, I never meant to provide a direct link between African American and T/Cs situations.

I want human rights for ALL Cypriots. Why you insist that I want them just for myself. Actually since I am not a refugee, my human rights are oppressed much less than many other Cypriots (both GC and TC).

What about the basic human right of "feeling safe in one's homeland"? You cannot blame if a T/C says he/she does not feel safe in a Greek majority situation, can you?

Here is the problem my friend when you talk about universal human rights in Cyprus. Greek population is majority in Cyprus. So universal human rights almost always mean human rights for Greek Cypriots because they are the majority. If Turkish Cypriots have some "other" human rights concerns, then they become meaningless because a concern is considered a legitimate concern only if it is a concern for the majority of the population. That's why you cannot say you want human rights for ALL Cypriots and expect it to be implemented. Because there's always the possibility of someone using the same excuse of universal human rights to ignore the rights of the minority.

I repeat again. Universal human rights in Cyprus will be possible onlly after we reach to the level where ethnicity won't matter. You have to accept that we are not at that level yet, and until we reach to that level, we cannot apply the universal human rights.
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Postby metecyp » Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:51 pm

It seems like I'm saying the same things over and over, but I'm going to repeat hoping that somebody will listen. The moral of the story is this. A G/C can approach to Cyprus problem in two ways.

First, he/she can regard Cyprus problem as an issue of invasion and an ethnic minority community trying to determine the fate of the majority. This has been the predominant perspective among G/Cs and it has been proved OVER AND OVER to be useless for Cyprus.

Secondly, a G/C can try to understand the roots of the T/C necessity for a seperate structure. They can try to understand why a T/C might feel safer in a federal structure with some limitations for Cypriots. Similarly, a T/C could try to understand why a G/C would not want Turkish soldiers on the island, why a G/C might be sensitive about seperate entities on the island. And from this point on, G/Cs and T/Cs can work together to build a common future that will involve one Cyprus with Cypriots exercising full universal human rights. This is the ultimate goal of Annan plan as it stands anyway.

We have to understand that no solution will ever satisfy both sides, so we need to compromise. We need to understand each other's concerns and work together to solve them. We should regard Annan plan as a first step towards a peaceful Cyprus where every citizen regardless of his ethnicity fully enjoys the rights in his republic.

Or, G/Cs can simply turn away and say "We're in EU anyway, and we have Republic of Cyprus, so who cares about T/Cs?" but I can guarantee that this is going to affect the whole Cyprus and its people in the future because this island is too small for divisions, and what goes around will eventually come around.
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Postby Guest » Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:21 pm

I really do not understand why you insist that because GC are the majority it means that human rights apply only to them.
Human rights are universal. There is no such human right as "the right of a minority to veto decisions of majority" actually thats even undemocratic. But the rights of movement and settlement to any part of your country and the right to enjoy your property are basic human rights.

We ask for human rights. What you ask for (veto, turkish troops etc) have nothing to do with human rights.

I will not repeat what I said already.

Your point is more like "lets trust each other, and move slowly slowly and in the future all will be perfect". This would be very nice, if we were angels. Also it would be nice if all people were like me and you(we are not angels but close :wink: ).
Unfortunatley my friend, all people are not like us. History has tought as terrible things. People no matter how educated they are they seem to fall into the traps of propaganda, nationalism etc.

I know it might sound harsh, but I can not put my future and the future of my children on your goodwill.

As we say "the good deals make the good friends". So when the day of the referendum will come I will see what the deal is, and I will vote accordingly. I will not vote hopping on some hypothetical developments that might happen in the distant future.
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