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Annan solution - What will *I* gain???

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby metecyp » Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:18 am

Seriously now, what I support is a fair solution, based on democracy and human rights. I don't want as a friend or compatriot anybody that does not respect democracy and my human rights.


I explained you why some limitations are needed for the transitional period. I said over and over that I also want an ULTIMATE solution based on democracy and human rights and I set this as a goal for both of the communities. Nobody disrespected anybody's human rights!

Now, you can insist on jumping to a solution of full democracy full human rights, but this is not going to happen, not in this world structure. Even in 1960 agreements, full democracy was not applied, and T/Cs were granted more rights in propotion to their population. Now, you can go back 40 years in time, and try to take away T/Cs rights but this is only going to be in your mind. You can't expect T/Cs & Turkey settle for less than 1960.

If you prefer the current situation, let it be that way. But don't forget that half of you will always be missing until you start realizing the realities of the island, and the realities of the region.
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Postby Greek Cypriot » Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:22 am

where is this transition period defined in the plan?
Thre is some transition period for the return of land and refugees, but I don't see anything about human rights, veto powers etc.
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Postby metecyp » Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:36 am

There's no defined transition period in the plan, and my point is that we do not need a definite transition period. If everything goes well, and if T/Cs and G/Cs start trusting each other again, then some parts of Annan plan will be useless automatically. For example, nobody would care if the population of G/Cs in the Turkish Constituent State is 20% or 50% if T/Cs did not regard G/Cs as a possible source of threat.

Secondly, it explicitly says in Annan plan that all limitations will be lifted when Turkey enters EU. So this might be considered end of the transitional period. You might argue that Turkey is never going to enter the EU, and you might be right. But this is another reason why you should support Turkish entry into EU.

To sum up, you do not have to write down every specific detail about what will happen in the future. In fact, we certainly cannot do that because we don't know what the future holds. But for most T/Cs and G/Cs the fundamental requirement for a solution is that they want to live happily and comfortably with no fighting and they want to live in prosperity in Cyprus. Once these are achieved, the details of the plan will fade away.

Personally, I don't care, for example, if the President is T/C or G/C, as long as my rights are intact, and I'm enjoying my life in Cyprus. And I'm sure we'll reach to the level where a president's being Turkish or Greek won't matter to anyone, as long as people are treated with respect and dignity.

Please read this paragraph carefully. The key here is that you need to start the process from somewhere, no matter how bad or how good the starting point might seem to be for one side or another. And I'm sure the rest will follow but I have a strong belief that T/Cs and G/Cs can coexist together, we just need to see it happenning.
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Postby Guest » Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:58 am

1) You forgot about Turkey that will never enter the EU and will never allow all those things that you said to happen.

2)You say to us: "We do not trust you. Therefore you should accept all these conditions and in the future all human rights, democracy etc will come"

But for these changes to happen in the future it means you have to agree, right? So why should we trust you that in the future you will allow for this changes?

Take the example of the refugees. You say that TC are afraid and thats why not all of them can return, but after several years when trust will be build you will allow for much greater number to return.

So you do not trust us, and you are afraid that we will harm you, when you have EU, your own police, the law, and even the Turkish army to protect and gurantee your safety.
And we should trust you, when there is absolutly no gurantee that you will decide to change something in the constitution in the future for our benefit???

No! If you can not trust us, the EU, the law, our constitution, then I am sorry, but I can not put my future on your goodwill.
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Postby metecyp » Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:14 am

My friend,

We can go on this argument forever. This is an endless cycle. Your argument is "You don't trust us, so that's why we don't trust you". Or "Why would I trust you if you don't trust me?" and on and on. And this is EXACTLY what I mean. There's lack of trust between two sides, and THE ONLY WAY to solve it is to start from a point, no matter how good/bad it might seem for one side or another.

No one side is going to trust the other side automatically because T/Cs trust on G/Cs depends on G/Cs trust on T/Cs. It's an endless circular cycle that we have been going through for the past 40 years! And that's why it never ends, and it will never end, until one side(or better both sides) break out of it, by starting to at least partially trust in some matters.

Please go and think about what I said. You'll see that it all makes sense if you think hard enough to go below the surface. No solution is going to be ever solved until the trust issue is resolved.
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Postby Greek Cypriot » Wed Feb 18, 2004 4:12 am

But you are wrong.

I trust Turkish Cypriots as people. I have no problem to live with them. I am not afraid of them. I don't have a problem to have you as classmates, workmates, partners and anything else you want. This is how the majority of GC feel.

What i do not trust is Turkey and the effect that it has on Turkish Cypriots. (and please, don't deny that!)

But even if we leave Turkey out, I still wouldn't agree.

What you are asking from us is very simmilar tho this:

I come and I say to you: "Dear Metecyp, I really want to be friends in peace with you, but I do not trust you very much. As a security messure, I want you to sign this contract that says that you give me half your belongings. When I am convinced that you are a very good friend, I might decide to give you part of your belongings back"

Would you trust me?

(if you do, send me a message, I will bring the contract and after you sign we will be good friends and I will even vote yes for Annan's plan :lol: )
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Postby metecyp » Wed Feb 18, 2004 5:48 am

You're insisting on not understanding, but I'll keep trying. I also do not have any personal problem with any G/C. Actually, I have some G/C friends that I get along much better than my T/C friends. This is not the issue. The issue is the following.

You said you don't trust Turkey, and what's the reason for that? The reason is first of all, Turkey has a much bigger potential than all Cyprus (militarily, politically, etc.) and it was proved in the past that Turkey can use (and did use) this power against G/Cs. That's why you cannot trust Turkey, correct?

Now, let's consider why a T/C might not trust G/Cs. Actually I should say let's consider why a T/C might not trust a G/C majority goverment, fair? The reason is the following. G/Cs has a much bigger potential than T/Cs (militarily, politically, economically, etc.) and it was proved in the past that G/Cs can use (and did use) some of these powers against T/Cs. That's why a T/C might have difficulty trusting a G/C majority goverment.

The reasons you're providing not to trust Turkey is exactly same as the reasons a T/C might provide to explain why he/she might not trust a G/C majority goverment! According to you, your fears are legitimate, but a T/C's fears are not! YOUR LOGIC IS FLAWED!
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Postby PEACE » Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:02 pm

So you do not trust us, and you are afraid that we will harm you, when you have EU, your own police, the law, and even the Turkish army to protect and gurantee your safety.


My police,my law,even the Turkish army? No. If we do a solution in your style these won't be.Cos Gcs will be majority in Turkish Cypriot State too. TCs' voting for the candicates won't affect the elections and Gc population will decide everthing in TCS too.After gaining this power in TCS too leaders of you can change even constitution! So? It was a federal solution but turned into a majority-minority solution where the majority governs everthing??

This is not acceptable ! This is even worst than 1960 and this is like wanting TRNC's continuity as a EU member.So i suggest you to think about things that can happen! Am i saying i want TRNC's continuity after a solution ? No! Cos i know it has no legal base and this is impossible! So i think you have to stop thinking impossible styles at least now!

Mete said really good.Your ideas can be after a time period that two community really feels safe theirself.






But you are wrong.

I trust Turkish Cypriots as people. I have no problem to live with them.


This is valid for Tcs too ! :wink:
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Postby Greek Cypriot » Wed Feb 18, 2004 9:20 pm

We are repeating ourselves.

The point is that you want us to accept to live in a country without democracy and with exceptions to human rights.

We will not, and nobody can blame us for this. End of story.
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:)

Postby PEACE » Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:53 pm

We are repeating ourselves


Yea! I strongly agree ! :? We are going to vote for referandum on 21 April 2004 ! :) Everyone knows his/her vote ! :wink: Problem solved!
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