Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

You did have a blocking power on everything.

We had a right to veto on a very specfic set of issue. On the rest there was right to return decisons to the 'house' and if they could not be ammended there to both communites satisfaction to have them refered to the Supreme court (excpet when this happend and the ruling was gainst GC wishes the ruling was ignored anyway) but this is neither here nor there really - just a matter of accuracy.

What I really would like you to answer is the question I saked above re do we have RIGHTS as a commuity or not (and equal to yours as a commuity)

The whole world??? Dude, British and Turks are not the whole world. Have you looked at a map recently?

And the British, Turkey and Greece and the TC and GC commuites are more than just the british and Turks. These were the 'entites' that agreed the 60 consitituion and it's basic premise that TC and GC have RIGHTS as communites and that these are equal.

in 1959.

We used tanks in 59 to force you to agree the 60 consitution ? News to me.

It is obvious what the 1960 constitution created by the colonialists is based on. You think you told as something new?
The Cyprus problem was created when they gave to a minority what they did not deserve. Come on Erolz, tell us that TCs deserved the 30% of governmental positions and 40% of the police!!

Well it seems that indirectly you have answered my question (though I would still prefer it explicitly). It would seem then that according to you we did not have rights as a community in cyprus in 1960 and we still do not have them today. We did not deserve it then - but Greece Turkey Britain and GC and TC all agreed we did anyway. We do not have it today but the EU, UN still want to give us some rights as a community. It must be hard living in a world that persecutes you so unfairly (by accepting that TC should have more rights in Cyprus than those of a minority) and so consistently for such a long period of time!

The Cyprus problem started when the government was unable to hire such a big number of TC governmental employees and the TCs retaliated by blocking the budgets making it impossible for the country to run properly.

The details we can sort out - but only after the concept is accepted. I can accept any arguments that we both had equal rights as a community but the balance struck in the 60 agreements was not right. What I can not accept is the concept that we have equal rights as communites. Is this what you are saying?

[Piratis]

Piratis do you accept that we have RIGHTS as one of the two communites in Cyprus and these rights are equal to those of the GC community despite the difference in sizes? If you do then we have been arguing at 'cross purposes' and this whole discussion has been a mistake and unessary. If however you insist that any parity you accept between the two communites is not a RIGHT but merely a 'gift' form GC to TC then we are back at 1960 and have got nowhere.

As Alex already said the rights of "peoples" and the rights of "communities" are not the same. What you were arguing so far is that you have the rights of "peoples", but you would compromise a bit of them, while in fact you have no such kind of rights in the first place.

As a community, of course you have rights (see definition given by Alex above). Did you ever see me arguing that Turkish should not be an official language, that TCs should start speaking Greek and become Christians or that TC have to change even one single thing from what makes a TC be a TC??

Not only I have no problem with such thing, I believe TC should have the full backing from the state to do this. This means Turkish official language, Mosques to be treated in the same way like Churches, the state to fund the Turkish education to an equal degree etc On such things I accept and I support 50%-50%, since one language can not be "more" than another, and one religion can not be "more" than another one.

However, we should all be citizens of one country, with exact same rights and responsibilities. What I mention above (language, religion, culture) are things that will guarantee that we are equal, and not things that will make Erolz to have more rights than Piratis. Also, this things do not limit the human rights of anybody, and human rights should not be limited.

Do you understand the concept of 'effective' control over Cyprus and that if you refuse to accept any staus of 'communites' and associated RIGHTS of communites and equlaity od communites, saying there is only one people in Cyprus and that only peoples have rights (and communites don't they only have gifts given by one to the other) you are _effectively_ saying only GC have a right to self determination in Cyprus (though needing a slightly higher than normal 50%+1 majority to detemine the will of the GC commuity to balance the TC minority)? Can you understand this?

The effective control of Cyprus belongs to Cypriots, and not to communities. That said, I recognize your fears, and I recognize that 18% is a significunt number, and this is why I proposed that TCs should have a veto power on critical matters. However you should also recognize the difference between 18% and 82% and understand why it is undemocratic to give a 50% power to the 18% of people for everything. (if you are going to bring the non country example of EU again, don't. Even in EU member states don't have a veto power on everything, and such power from individuals states is reduced even further with the new constitution)

What I want is for you to accept that we have RIGHTS as a community, that these rights are the same for both communities despite the difference in size. If you can accept this then we can end this debate once and for all and move on.

I accept this and I never argued for the opposite. What I didn't accept was your claims about TCs having not community, but "peoples" rights.

[insan]

However you should also recognize the difference between 18% and 82% and understand why it is undemocratic to give a 50% power to the 18% of people for everything.

What about sharing the power 50/50 just for safe-guarding against everything detrimental to the interests and rights of either community? Any bill related with anything might be harmful for either communities...

[erolz]

As a community, of course you have rights (see definition given by Alex above). Did you ever see me arguing that Turkish should not be an official language, that TCs should start speaking Greek and become Christians or that TC have to change even one single thing from what makes a TC be a TC??

Maybe we have been arguing at cross purposes then? When you say things like we did not have any right to anything more than a minority (in 60 or now) I assumed this was what you meant. It seems now that you accept that we have rights greater than those of a minority as RIGHTS (not as gifts or concessions from GC). If that is the case then we are nearly there.

Not only I have no problem with such thing, I believe TC should have the full backing from the state to do this. This means Turkish official language, Mosques to be treated in the same way like Churches, the state to fund the Turkish education to an equal degree etc On such things I accept and I support 50%-50%, since one language can not be "more" than another, and one religion can not be "more" than another one.

OK. Do you still insist that any rights that are between communites and should rightfully be 50 -50 must be predeifned and pre limited to areas, or do you accept a concept of such equality so that if a new area comes up that is similarly threatening to the TC community as those you mention above but not 'pre defined' as an area of 'equality' between communites before a settlement we should still have a RIGHT to object and block such moves?

The effective control of Cyprus belongs to Cypriots, and not to communities. That said, I recognize your fears, and I recognize that 18% is a significunt number, and this is why I proposed that TCs should have a veto power on critical matters.

Then it would seem our issue is only with if these rights that there is to be equality between the commuites is to be pre defined and limited to a list set in stone at the start of a solution or to be based on a concept of where they should apply so that if unforseen instances occur the protections cna still apply.

However you should also recognize the difference between 18% and 82% and understand why it is undemocratic to give a 50% power to the 18% of people for everything.

Can you show me even a SINGLE post where I have said we should have equality on everything? I have never said this (unless I have an alterante personaility that I am unaware of). The sticking point, if you accept the concept of RIGHTS of communites and their equality between GC and TC, is if this list of areas should be pre defined or based on some form of criteria.

(if you are going to bring the non country example of EU again, don't. Even in EU member states don't have a veto power on everything, and such power from individuals states is reduced even further with the new constitution)

If you do not argue that _any_ system that does not deliver exactly one person one vote is in principal inherently undemocratic I will not mention the EU.

I accept this and I never argued for the opposite. What I didn't accept was your claims about TCs having not community, but "peoples" rights.

OK this has been misunderstanding and no one is happy than me to have it it removed. If you accpet the concept of rights of communites (more than rights of minorites and less than those of peoples) then I am happy with that. If you refuse to accept the concept of RIGHTS of communites (and equality of GC and TC communitrs in these rights) and insist on a status of either minority or people - because that is all that is in the human rights charters - and that we are just a minority and nothing more then I have no option but to return to our rights as a people but with limits and qualifications (which to me is the very basis of the concept of the rights of communites in Cyprus in the first place and thus why I mention them in this context)

[erolz]

What about sharing the power 50/50 just for safe-guarding against everything detrimental to the interests and rights of either community? Any bill related with anything might be harmful for either communities...

Exactly

If the areas that are deemed to relate to equality of communites is to be define in a way such as this then we are there. Problem solved and just the details to work out. If however they are to be a pre defined list then I still have problems.

[pantelis]

According to my "failed" poll, above, I am the only one who is willing to respect the majority opinion of his/her "own" community.

I look forward to a new chapter in the history of Cyprus, where EQUALITY (in all frames and forms) would provide the foundation where all the Cypriot people can climb on together, holding hands, as a single community.

The term "Equal but Separate", (which is an American invention of the years of segregation is a euphemism of the term SEPARATE, by the way) is promoted by hardliners and racists that want to preserve and maintain this separation (which it may result into various forms of "isolation"), for their own reasons and interests, which they always back by obsolete and anachronistic rational and a barrage of well organized and “effective” propaganda material). The sentiments of these groups, event if they are NOT the sentiments of the silent majorities, seem to come out loudest, with the support and organized amplification of the status quo and other “appropriations”.

Is there any sunlight at the end of this dark Cyprus tunnel? If not, why don’t we simply turn around? Are we, ourselves, the ones who are blocking the openings any making all sorts of excuses?

[insan]

What about as possible as jointly and for the remaining part seperately. It seems to me that in your self-centered world, everything TCs put forward are just excuses for abuse. No just causes and the facts.

Even in a family noone hold each others hand for everything.

In the age of consent, big brothers has no right to impose their will upon the little brothers neither the little brothers have such a right. This is what balances their powers and safeguard from each other not their other qualities.

[erolz]

According to my "failed" poll, above, I am the only one who is willing to respect the majority opinion of his/her "own" community.

I did not vote in your poll but I am willing to accept the will of the majority of my community.

I look forward to a new chapter in the history of Cyprus, where EQUALITY (in all frames and forms) would provide the foundation where all the Cypriot people can climb on together, holding hands, as a single community.

Amen to that !

The term "Equal but Separate",

What about the term 'equal and united'? That is what I would like to see in an ideal world. However 'united but not equal' is not what I would want.

Is there any sunlight at the end of this dark Cyprus tunnel? If not, why don’t we simply turn around? Are we, ourselves, the ones who are blocking the openings any making all sorts of excuses?

Well it felt (feels) like we were making real progress in this thread. Pending comments from Piratis on the 'pre defined list or principal' issue I would say we have made real progress in establishing what we are trying to head for. If this is the case then we can move onto the detail of how we get from where we are now to where we agree we need to go. This to me seems like progress at least as far as Piratis and myself are concerned and is thus encouraging. What do you think Pantelis? Is this a ray of sunlight or just a false flash of retina image that I have mistaken for sunlight (in the dark tunnel it can be hard to tell)?

[insan]

According to my "failed" poll, above, I am the only one who is willing to respect the majority opinion of his/her "own" community.

In your poll which was based upon something interests all Cypriots, you asked whether we accept the simple majority vote or not. Most of the people told you that "yes, acceptable but not adequate." If your options have been %75+, all of us would have voted it.

Now does that mean you respect the simple majority opinion of your community but we respect the greater majority opinion of our communities? It is obvious that we took into consideration the quality of the question. I still can't understand why you still trying to distort the fact concerning our response to your poll. Do you mean that you are the most democratic man of the forum?

[magikthrill]

erolz, piratis,

wow, you guys came to the slightest agreement in something. and it only took what? 2 years!

of course agreeing on soemthing is just the beginning. you both have many differences in your underlyings of what constitute a good united republic. maybe if you can start discussing this you can reach a good proposal.

i mean if the two of you can agree on something then the rest of Cyprus shouldn't have a problem1