Cyprus-Forum.com

[Chimera]

Chimera, I tottally agree with you. Though I would like to see the UN telling Turkey to bugger off. Like Birk, said this is a long lasting sulk.

Well are you saying the EU would be ineffectual against Turkey?

(I am only advocating "economic forces", not war by the way)

[Kikapu]

Pyro,

I'll take a look at my "own proposal" tomorrow, to see if I can answer some of your good questions.

[Pyrpolizer]

I am getting concerned that we are turning a perfectly simple solution into fodder for all and sundry to debate, eulogise and philosophise on. I know that is the human condition and I am prepared to accept it to a point.

But this is vergin on the ridiculous. However, it has served to congeal my thoughts on a peace solution...I can not foresee any othe workable plan other than:

The EU "forces" the hand of Turkey out of the affairs of Cyprus.
All peoples born on Cyprus have choice to remain.
All indigenous Cypriots have true recognition to acquire their stolen properties.
We establish a democracy, headed purely by the indigenous Cypriots, whilst allowing for the future flow of elections to vote in the candidates based on merit and popularity no matter their ethnic origins (save, born on Cyprus).

Well I already said not only Kikapus plan is fine but the philisophy behind it is sensible too. The philosophy says strike out a solution that will solve most of the MAJOR concerns of both TCs ad GCs and leave some things out to be worked on a 10 year plan when trust and cooperation is already established and we have true data in hand.

If you guys want to leave it upto there I have no problem.

OK lets leave it there and see what the TCs in this forum will say.

ZAN DO YOU ACCEPT IT?

Anyone else?????

[zan]

I am getting concerned that we are turning a perfectly simple solution into fodder for all and sundry to debate, eulogise and philosophise on. I know that is the human condition and I am prepared to accept it to a point.

But this is vergin on the ridiculous. However, it has served to congeal my thoughts on a peace solution...I can not foresee any othe workable plan other than:

The EU "forces" the hand of Turkey out of the affairs of Cyprus.
All peoples born on Cyprus have choice to remain.
All indigenous Cypriots have true recognition to acquire their stolen properties.
We establish a democracy, headed purely by the indigenous Cypriots, whilst allowing for the future flow of elections to vote in the candidates based on merit and popularity no matter their ethnic origins (save, born on Cyprus).

Well I already said not only Kikapus plan is fine but the philisophy behind it is sensible too. The philosophy says strike out a solution that will solve most of the MAJOR concerns of both TCs ad GCs and leave some things out to be worked on a 10 year plan when trust and cooperation is already established and we have true data in hand.

If you guys want to leave it upto there I have no problem.

OK lets leave it there and see what the TCs in this forum will say.

ZAN DO YOU ACCEPT IT?

Anyone else?????

Read through the thread Pyro....You will find that we got stuck on the first point and Kofi Kikapu threw his toys out of the pram....Not much interest from the members after that except a few saying it is OK.


It is not a matter of do agree or not but is it workable...On principle it seems like a yes...In practice....As I said, read the thread.[/i]

[Kikapu]

Pyro,

If you listen to VP, Zan, and more and more BigOz, they are all saying, "let the North build it's economy by removing any obstacles, such as embargoes, sport events, Direct Trade, and see the TC's wanting a solution". Well, that's what I tried to do, is to give the TC's 10 years to catch up to the RoC, but then the TC's will need to give something back in return, so that it does not become a one-way good gesture by the RoC, without any guarantees from the TC's, that at the end off 10 years, there will be Unification of some sorts. Therefore after the initial agreements with the 10 points that I mentioned, the rest are implemented on a step- by- step basis. This is what they are trying to do in Iraq by the Americans, is to give the Iraqis certain benchmarks to meet by certain dates, so that the Americans can pull out. OK, there's a lot of game playing that's going on in Iraq, but the idea is there.

I believe you said once, that AP was hundreds of pages long. It is that kind of a plan, that will get people confused and not really add clarity. I do not want to be instructed by AP, if I should eat with my left hand or with my right.!! I wanted the AP to tell me, that I'm free to eat anyway I want. The point being, lets not have a plan that dictates our every move. I told Zan once before, that the American Constitution is written on one piece of paper. Granted it was a large piece of paper, but one piece all the same. Lets follow this motto "KISS", "Keep it Simple Stupid". As with any Constitution, it is a "living and breathing" thing. It should be open for debates and changes, as dictated by time and events that may make some provisions obsolete, or else we would still have Slavery in America.

My guess is, those who voted YES to AP, will not like "Kikapu's Plan" too much for obvious reasons. It will force them to "put their money where their mouth is".

I wouldn't count my pennies if I were you.

[zan]

Pyro,

If you listen to VP, Zan, and more and more BigOz, they are all saying, "let the North build it's economy by removing any obstacles, such as embargoes, sport events, Direct Trade, and see the TC's wanting a solution". Well, that's what I tried to do, is to give the TC's 10 years to catch up to the RoC, but then the TC's will need to give something back in return, so that it does not become a one-way good gesture by the RoC, without any guarantees from the TC's, that at the end off 10 years, there will be Unification of some sorts. Therefore after the initial agreements with the 10 points that I mentioned, the rest are implemented on a step- by- step basis. This is what they are trying to do in Iraq by the Americans, is to give the Iraqis certain benchmarks to meet by certain dates, so that the Americans can pull out. OK, there's a lot of game playing that's going on in Iraq, but the idea is there.

I believe you said once, that AP was hundreds of pages long. It is that kind of a plan, that will get people confused and not really add clarity. I do not want to be instructed by AP, if I should eat with my left hand or with my right.!! I wanted the AP to tell me, that I'm free to eat anyway I want. The point being, lets not have a plan that dictates our every move. I told Zan once before, that the American Constitution is written on one piece of paper. Granted it was a large piece of paper, but one piece all the same. Lets follow this motto "KISS", "Keep it Simple Stupid". As with any Constitution, it is a "living and breathing" thing. It should be open for debates and changes, as dictated by time and events that may make some provisions obsolete, or else we would still have Slavery in America.

My guess is, those who voted YES to AP, will not like "Kikapu's Plan" too much for obvious reasons. It will force them to "put their money where their mouth is".

I wouldn't count my pennies if I were you.

You are not getting what I said Kiks. I am impressed by the American constitution as I am with your plan and I will write one right now:


1. Love thy niegbour.

2. Do unto others as you would have done unto you.

3. etc etc etc...........

Principles are fine but you have to fine tune with laws and conditions. Mosses brought down the ultimate constitution but it seems it was not enough. Kofi Annan brought about the best solution for Cyprus that was possible with aid from the best minds in the business but it did not fit the GC elite plan so it got a tearful OXI.

What I am saying to you is that you will have to bring two sides together...You seem to be taking sides as you always do. How can you be seen as chief negotiator if you cannot even listen to one sides concerns and give a proper answer to them. "Well if you do not agree then it will not work" is not a proper response. If there is a wall then you have to find a way around it...That is the job you have taken on and you are not doing a very good job of it.

Allen Sugar says "You're Fired".

[Pyrpolizer]

If you listen to VP, Zan, and more and more BigOz, they are all saying, "let the North build it's economy by removing any obstacles, such as embargoes, sport events, Direct Trade, and see the TC's wanting a solution". Well, that's what I tried to do, is to give the TC's 10 years to catch up to the RoC, but then the TC's will need to give something back in return, so that it does not become a one-way good gesture by the RoC, without any guarantees from the TC's, that at the end off 10 years, there will be Unification of some sorts. Therefore after the initial agreements with the 10 points that I mentioned, the rest are implemented on a step- by- step basis. This is what they are trying to do in Iraq by the Americans, is to give the Iraqis certain benchmarks to meet by certain dates, so that the Americans can pull out. OK, there's a lot of game playing that's going on in Iraq, but the idea is there.

Don’t worry my friend I got your spirit right from the start. In fact the job of a good President is not to make the whole plan himself but to put the general spirit down so that experts work out the details. I repeat it is a good idea.

I believe you said once, that AP was hundreds of pages long. It is that kind of a plan, that will get people confused and not really add clarity. I do not want to be instructed by AP, if I should eat with my left hand or with my right.!! I wanted the AP to tell me, that I'm free to eat anyway I want. The point being, lets not have a plan that dictates our every move. I told Zan once before, that the American Constitution is written on one piece of paper. Granted it was a large piece of paper, but one piece all the same. Lets follow this motto "KISS", "Keep it Simple Stupid". As with any Constitution, it is a "living and breathing" thing. It should be open for debates and changes, as dictated by time and events that may make some provisions obsolete, or else we would still have Slavery in America.

Yes the Anan Plan was 182 pages but the attachments more than 20,000.
As you said the original American constitution is indeed something the Americans boast about because it was so small and simple that allowed it to evolve naturally.

So thinking of it, your plan might do the same trick. A realitively simple plan that gives everybody what he wants. Nobody can say no, in fact even Zan said it’s generally ok. But, if we go into details then there will be objections here, objections there, everything gets stalled. Perhaps if there was someone to tell the 2 sides "I don’t care about the details, here’s what you have to do, just do it. What difficulties you will come across, and what steps you will take, is your bussiness nobody cares. Just each one of you do what the plan says, negotiations are over, see you in 5 years", then we might just by miracle having the Cypriots working like hell towards a solution.

[Kikapu]

Pyro,

If you listen to VP, Zan, and more and more BigOz, they are all saying, "let the North build it's economy by removing any obstacles, such as embargoes, sport events, Direct Trade, and see the TC's wanting a solution". Well, that's what I tried to do, is to give the TC's 10 years to catch up to the RoC, but then the TC's will need to give something back in return, so that it does not become a one-way good gesture by the RoC, without any guarantees from the TC's, that at the end off 10 years, there will be Unification of some sorts. Therefore after the initial agreements with the 10 points that I mentioned, the rest are implemented on a step- by- step basis. This is what they are trying to do in Iraq by the Americans, is to give the Iraqis certain benchmarks to meet by certain dates, so that the Americans can pull out. OK, there's a lot of game playing that's going on in Iraq, but the idea is there.

I believe you said once, that AP was hundreds of pages long. It is that kind of a plan, that will get people confused and not really add clarity. I do not want to be instructed by AP, if I should eat with my left hand or with my right.!! I wanted the AP to tell me, that I'm free to eat anyway I want. The point being, lets not have a plan that dictates our every move. I told Zan once before, that the American Constitution is written on one piece of paper. Granted it was a large piece of paper, but one piece all the same. Lets follow this motto "KISS", "Keep it Simple Stupid". As with any Constitution, it is a "living and breathing" thing. It should be open for debates and changes, as dictated by time and events that may make some provisions obsolete, or else we would still have Slavery in America.

My guess is, those who voted YES to AP, will not like "Kikapu's Plan" too much for obvious reasons. It will force them to "put their money where their mouth is".

I wouldn't count my pennies if I were you.

You are not getting what I said Kiks. I am impressed by the American constitution as I am with your plan and I will write one right now:


1. Love thy niegbour.

2. Do unto others as you would have done unto you.

3. etc etc etc...........

Principles are fine but you have to fine tune with laws and conditions. Mosses brought down the ultimate constitution but it seems it was not enough. Kofi Annan brought about the best solution for Cyprus that was possible with aid from the best minds in the business but it did not fit the GC elite plan so it got a tearful OXI.

What I am saying to you is that you will have to bring two sides together...You seem to be taking sides as you always do. How can you be seen as chief negotiator if you cannot even listen to one sides concerns and give a proper answer to them. "Well if you do not agree then it will not work" is not a proper response. If there is a wall then you have to find a way around it...That is the job you have taken on and you are not doing a very good job of it.

Allen Sugar says "You're Fired".

Zan,

I understand what you are saying, and your 10 Commandments analogy is a good one. But guess what, God only wrote the 10 Commandments and men wrote the "details" in the Bible, Koran, and all the other religious books. I'm leaving all the details for the people to work out, after they accept the principles of a just settlement. If they don't want a settlement, whats the use of having the details.

In all honesty, I in fact tried to favour the TC's just a little bit more with this plan then the GC's, because it is the TC's who are feeling insecure with their safety and also to "level the playing field" economically. At the end, both sides need to make some compromises, but at no time anyone will get screwed deliberately. If a GC cannot go back to their property, then they will need to be compensated PRONTO...and not 20 years later with bunch of empty promises. If a TC wants to remain where they are, then they have the option to sell their land in the South and pay the GC who owns the land the TC is sitting on in the North. There won't be any forced evictions, if people are willing to settle financially. If a TC cannot afford to pay the GC for their property, then yes, they will need to move to another location. Same will apply in the South, if any TC's want to locate there.. This will go a long way to show goodwill by being practical and not vengeful. These are easy details to work out, once the basic principles are accepted.

By the way, It wasn't only TC's who said yes to AP, because about 23% GC's also said Yes to AP, so my comments about those voting Yes to AP will not like "Kikapu's Plan" was not aimed at TC's, as you may have thought. I'm sure there are some GC's who would prefer AP over mine, for reasons they only know.

Who the hell is Allen Sugar.

[zan]

If you listen to VP, Zan, and more and more BigOz, they are all saying, "let the North build it's economy by removing any obstacles, such as embargoes, sport events, Direct Trade, and see the TC's wanting a solution". Well, that's what I tried to do, is to give the TC's 10 years to catch up to the RoC, but then the TC's will need to give something back in return, so that it does not become a one-way good gesture by the RoC, without any guarantees from the TC's, that at the end off 10 years, there will be Unification of some sorts. Therefore after the initial agreements with the 10 points that I mentioned, the rest are implemented on a step- by- step basis. This is what they are trying to do in Iraq by the Americans, is to give the Iraqis certain benchmarks to meet by certain dates, so that the Americans can pull out. OK, there's a lot of game playing that's going on in Iraq, but the idea is there.

Don’t worry my friend I got your spirit right from the start. In fact the job of a good President is not to make the whole plan himself but to put the general spirit down so that experts work out the details. I repeat it is a good idea.

I believe you said once, that AP was hundreds of pages long. It is that kind of a plan, that will get people confused and not really add clarity. I do not want to be instructed by AP, if I should eat with my left hand or with my right.!! I wanted the AP to tell me, that I'm free to eat anyway I want. The point being, lets not have a plan that dictates our every move. I told Zan once before, that the American Constitution is written on one piece of paper. Granted it was a large piece of paper, but one piece all the same. Lets follow this motto "KISS", "Keep it Simple Stupid". As with any Constitution, it is a "living and breathing" thing. It should be open for debates and changes, as dictated by time and events that may make some provisions obsolete, or else we would still have Slavery in America.

Yes the Anan Plan was 182 pages but the attachments more than 20,000.
As you said the original American constitution is indeed something the Americans boast about because it was so small and simple that allowed it to evolve naturally.

So thinking of it, your plan might do the same trick. A realitively simple plan that gives everybody what he wants. Nobody can say no, in fact even Zan said it’s generally ok. But, if we go into details then there will be objections here, objections there, everything gets stalled. Perhaps if there was someone to tell the 2 sides "I don’t care about the details, here’s what you have to do, just do it. What difficulties you will come across, and what steps you will take, is your bussiness nobody cares. Just each one of you do what the plan says, negotiations are over, see you in 5 years", then we might just by miracle having the Cypriots working like hell towards a solution.

Some one already tried to do that....No I am not going to say Makarios, well maybe...NO.....I am going to say God. How many years has it been now????


Commercial interests will win the day mate, as I have always said and if the GCs stop being so greedy and let us get on with the business of the day I guarantee that within years there will be joint efforts and no government or constitution can stop that. A Level playing field.

[Kikapu]

If you listen to VP, Zan, and more and more BigOz, they are all saying, "let the North build it's economy by removing any obstacles, such as embargoes, sport events, Direct Trade, and see the TC's wanting a solution". Well, that's what I tried to do, is to give the TC's 10 years to catch up to the RoC, but then the TC's will need to give something back in return, so that it does not become a one-way good gesture by the RoC, without any guarantees from the TC's, that at the end off 10 years, there will be Unification of some sorts. Therefore after the initial agreements with the 10 points that I mentioned, the rest are implemented on a step- by- step basis. This is what they are trying to do in Iraq by the Americans, is to give the Iraqis certain benchmarks to meet by certain dates, so that the Americans can pull out. OK, there's a lot of game playing that's going on in Iraq, but the idea is there.

Don’t worry my friend I got your spirit right from the start. In fact the job of a good President is not to make the whole plan himself but to put the general spirit down so that experts work out the details. I repeat it is a good idea.

I believe you said once, that AP was hundreds of pages long. It is that kind of a plan, that will get people confused and not really add clarity. I do not want to be instructed by AP, if I should eat with my left hand or with my right.!! I wanted the AP to tell me, that I'm free to eat anyway I want. The point being, lets not have a plan that dictates our every move. I told Zan once before, that the American Constitution is written on one piece of paper. Granted it was a large piece of paper, but one piece all the same. Lets follow this motto "KISS", "Keep it Simple Stupid". As with any Constitution, it is a "living and breathing" thing. It should be open for debates and changes, as dictated by time and events that may make some provisions obsolete, or else we would still have Slavery in America.

Yes the Anan Plan was 182 pages but the attachments more than 20,000.
As you said the original American constitution is indeed something the Americans boast about because it was so small and simple that allowed it to evolve naturally.

So thinking of it, your plan might do the same trick. A realitively simple plan that gives everybody what he wants. Nobody can say no, in fact even Zan said it’s generally ok. But, if we go into details then there will be objections here, objections there, everything gets stalled. Perhaps if there was someone to tell the 2 sides "I don’t care about the details, here’s what you have to do, just do it. What difficulties you will come across, and what steps you will take, is your bussiness nobody cares. Just each one of you do what the plan says, negotiations are over, see you in 5 years", then we might just by miracle having the Cypriots working like hell towards a solution.

Pyro,

Thanks for your support.

Once the TC's and the GC's agree on a settlement, all the rest will fall in place. Just like any business or a Corporation, when they are being taken over, a merger, or going out of business, certain actions will go into play. In our case, it will be a case of a merger by two companies. One is bigger than the other but it does not mean the smaller one does not have a voice or has any less rights in the new company. It is a "merger" and not a "takeover". All the details would be agreed in advance for the merger to take place. We know what a "forced takeover" looks like on our island, which really has not benefited anyone at all, so it is time to have a "agreed merger".

Again, thanks for your support.