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Does it matter where you are born?

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby zan » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:08 pm

Get Real! wrote:
erolz wrote:Majority (of individual) rule is ONE means to achieve democracy. It is NOT the end (point / objective) of democracy. The objective of democracy is that people have an EFFECTIVE say in the decisions that affect their lives....

The “majority rules” principle is directly related to numerical majority of a population and it’s unfortunate that the TC community is very much affected by this in Cyprus.

However, the very fact that the TC community is DISCERNIBLE from the remainder of Cypriots to the point where it requires and requests “minority rights” is the source of the problem itself.

Had the TC community NOT allowed its people to BELIEVE and AIM that they are “different” and simply accepted that what sets them apart from other Cypriot communities, such as language, religion, and culture, fall under “DIVERSITY” then none of the inter-communal animosity would exist.

It is also important to note that it’s much more practical and democratic for a numerical minority to tweak and streamline itself around the masses than the other way round.

Regards, GR.


In short become a Muslim Greek and like it. Sorry mate, no can do....and will you stop talking to yourself.


We are not a minority but founding partners of a republic. A republic in which we were murdered and held to ransom because of our ancestry so for you to say that we took ourselves out of the equation is laughable.
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Postby Piratis » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:23 pm

18% is clearly a minority, and the conflict is exactly due to the fact that you could not accept that the time of the Ottoman rule, where you butchered us by the 10s of thousands and ruled this island against the will of Cypriots, was over, and you wanted to repeat it all over again.

This island belongs to Cypriots, and our fight for liberation will be over when Cyprus will be finally liberated and Cypriots alone will be able to rule their land in a democratic way.
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Postby zan » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:32 pm

Piratis wrote:18% is clearly a minority, and the conflict is exactly due to the fact that you could not accept that the time of the Ottoman rule, where you butchered us by the 10s of thousands and ruled this island against the will of Cypriots, was over, and you wanted to repeat it all over again.

This island belongs to Cypriots, and our fight for liberation will be over when Cyprus will be finally liberated and Cypriots alone will be able to rule their land in a democratic way.


I am not an Ottoman and niether were the people that your murderers butchered in accordance to the Akritas Plan.
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Postby erolz » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:33 pm

Piratis wrote:The reason we are divided is that you want a lot more power than what proportionately belongs to you, and Britain and Turkey were more than willing to provide you the means to take this power on our loss (and on the loss of democracy), as this served their own interests as well.



That you think my community having an equal (or indeed any effective) voice along with yours as a community on such fundamental decision as will my homeland exists as a state at all, will it be given to a foreign (to me and my community) state to be run by foreigners, what my nationality will be and the such , is exactly the problem. Your 'version' of democracy says my community can have no such say in these matters and your can and will decided them not just for your own community but mine as well. Sorry Piratis that is not 'democracy' to me at all and as long as you inisit it is the only means of achieving democracy within Cyprus, we will remain divided on this fundamental issue.

Let me be equally clear. If your community had ever shown any desire or ability to also consider my communities wishes in how our shared homeland will move into the future on the basis that it belongs to both of us as communites and both as communites should have an effective voice and not to try and force its ethnic communal will on mine using amongst other things violence , deception and illegality under the guise of 'democracy' and 'self determination' (of GC to determine the future of TC) then I would be happy with a more 'typical' form of government. It is because your community DID do these things that these things are fundamental issues for me.
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Postby erolz » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:43 pm

Piratis wrote:18% is clearly a minority, and the conflict is exactly due to the fact that you could not accept that the time of the Ottoman rule, where you butchered us by the 10s of thousands and ruled this island against the will of Cypriots, was over, and you wanted to repeat it all over again.

This island belongs to Cypriots, and our fight for liberation will be over when Cyprus will be finally liberated and Cypriots alone will be able to rule their land in a democratic way.


What you are saying to me is perfectly clear Piratis. Cyprus belongs to GREEK Cypriots and until GREEK Cypriots are free to do what GREEK Cypriots want with Cyprus without any regard for what TC, for whom Cyprus is also their homeland , may want then your 'fight for liberation' will never be over. TC can stay in Cyprus but only if they accept that they can have no right at all as a community to effectively particpate in shaping their own homelands future in the face of GREEK Cypriot desires.

It is because you believed this in the past and acted accordingly that the Cypriot communites were divided far more than ANYTHING the British ever did and it is because you STILL believe this and make this belief so plainly clear to me that we remain divided today.

Until you can accept than my community has as much right as a community to shape Cyprus' future as yours, in exactly the same way the RoC has the same right to shape the EU's future as Germany does , we will remain divided and blaming the British for this division will remain the patent nonsense that it is.
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Postby Piratis » Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:00 pm

I am not an Ottoman and niether were the people that your murderers butchered in accordance to the Akritas Plan.


So when TCs dropped from the sky to Cyprus?

You butchered 10s of thousands of Greek Cypriots, and oppressed us for centuries. In fact you continue doing so now as well. In fact you have almost never stopped committing crimes against us since the day you set your foot on this island, and yet you pretend to be the victim because you had a few 100s of victims as well and you suffered for a decade, a drop in the ocean compared to the suffering you caused and you continue to cause to us.

hat you think my community having an equal (or indeed any effective) voice along with yours as a community on such fundamental decision as will my homeland exists as a state at all, will it be given to a foreign (to me and my community) state to be run by foreigners, what my nationality will be and the such , is exactly the problem. Your 'version' of democracy says my community can have no such say in these matters and your can and will decided them not just for your own community but mine as well. Sorry Piratis that is not 'democracy' to me at all and as long as you inisit it is the only means of achieving democracy within Cyprus, we will remain divided on this fundamental issue.

Let me be equally clear. If your community had ever shown any desire or ability to also consider my communities wishes in how our shared homeland will move into the future on the basis that it belongs to both of us as communites and both as communites should have an effective voice and not to try and force its ethnic communal will on mine using amongst other things violence , deception and illegality under the guise of 'democracy' and 'self determination' (of GC to determine the future of TC) then I would be happy with a more 'typical' form of government. It is because your community DID do these things that these things are fundamental issues for me.


Your community can have what every other minority has in every other democratic country in the world. In fact with my proposals for proportionate representation you would have way more than most other minorities.

My community "DID" to you, way less than what you did to us, so I don't see how you can use that as an excuse. As if the Kurds and the Turks in Turkey, or the Bulgarians and the Turks in Bulgaria, or the Blacks and Whites in the USA etc etc never had a conflict with each other and Cyprus is the only exception.

I will repeat to you the definition of democracy, as given from the most known, and also probably most multi-ethnic democracy in the world (with its own share of problems between its communities):

These elements define the fundamental elements of all modern democracies, no matter how varied in history, culture, and economy. Despite their enormous differences as nations and societies, the essential elements of constitutional government--majority rule coupled with individual and minority rights, and the rule of law--can be found in Canada and Costa Rica, France and Botswana, Japan and India.
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Postby erolz » Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:23 pm

Piratis wrote: My community "DID" to you, way less than what you did to us, so I don't see how you can use that as an excuse.


The simple reality remains Piratis that as long as you insist that my community, for whom cyprus is their homeland as much as yours, can have no effective voice or say in the most fundamantal decision about the future of that homeland in the face of GC desires, I will differ from you. Calling this insistance 'democracy' or prattling on about ottomans and the like will not change this simple reality. Nor will trying to blame others (Turkey, Britain, US the world) for this difference carry any weight either.
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Postby Piratis » Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:40 pm

"Majority rule" in a democratic Cyprus where each Cypriot is equal could very easily translate into "majority of TCs (e.g. 16% of the 18%)" + "minority of GCs (e.g. 35% of the 82%)" = 51% Majority of Cypriots. If you also consider that I talk about guaranteed proportional representation up to the level of President in addition to the minority rights that will safeguard the differences of TCs in language and religion, then I really don't understand how you can talk about TCs not having an effective voice or say. One thing is to demand your fair share (and you would get to more than 100% with what I propose), and a whole another to want to take our share as well.
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Postby Piratis » Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:44 pm

Nor will trying to blame others (Turkey, Britain, US the world) for this difference carry any weight either


By the way, I never blamed "the world". The countries that have interests into keeping Cyprus divided are very specific, and they are those that keep, and they want to continue to keep their troops on our our island.
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Postby Kristianikos » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:09 pm

haha, hmm.. for me it is hard.. but living in England i have always stated 'cypriot' when asked.

My father is German, Mother Cypriot.

I was born in Greece and live in the UK.

Could things get anymore confusing for me :shock: :shock:
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