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[insan]

Of course what is slowly being lost is the Cypriot identity. Just try to evaluate how Cypriot you are. Really, how many of us can dance a "kartzilama", can sing a voice from Tyllirka, from Karpasia or from Paphos? And if you do, has anyone bothered to teach these things to us at school?

Hi antonis;

Cypriot identity in North; is still so strong and getting stronger and stronger everyday because of the activities of some succesful associations and organizations such as http://www.folk-arts.org/indexe.htm

We are given training of the traditional folk dances from the elemantary school to the end of the high school. After the elementary school; it's not compulsory, though.

Brain-Wash in our schools in North is almost impossible because overwhelming majority of our teachers are hardcore left-wingers. There have been numerous clashes between governments of North and teacher-unions that usually ended up with the victory of teacher-unions.

Although I enjoy watching TCs folk dances, I can't say that I'm addicted to traditional Cypriot folk dances.

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Ps: We spell "kartzilama" as "karşılama" and "Tyllirka" as "dillirga". Dillirga is most popular among TCs. I can comfortably say that "Dillirga" has become the communal anthem of TCs.

[antonis]

Cypriot identity in North; is still so strong and getting stronger and stronger everyday because of the activities of some succesful associations and organizations such as http://www.folk-arts.org/indexe.htm

I have a hard time appreciating how strong the cypriot identity is in the northern part of the island. There are cultural activities in the southern part too, but this is not my point. It's the "preferential attachment" attitute towards either Greece or Turkey. And that issue is definitely strong in the northern part, is that not right? Folk dances and music at school? Sure, but in their majority not Cypriot.

Brain-Wash in our schools in North is almost impossible because overwhelming majority of our teachers are hardcore left-wingers.

So what do you mean by `brainwash'? Did it occur to you that the left-wingers may also be trying to brainwash you? Or is that kind of brainwash OK? Keep in mind that people that gain your trust are the worst "brainwashers" you could ever have...

I can comfortably say that "Dillirga" has become the communal anthem of TCs.

Unfortunately in the case of a solution we're stuck with a not very interesting flag and a not very nice national anthem. Of course the current RoC flag was described, at the time, as "a fried egg with a couple of parsley leaves"...

[erolz]

Cypriot identity in North; is still so strong and getting stronger and stronger everyday because of the activities of some succesful associations and organizations such as http://www.folk-arts.org/indexe.htm

I understand what you are saying antonis but I actually disagree with you. I think there is a very strong GC and TC identity that is seperate from that of either Greece or Turkey. If there was not a strong Cypriot identity in the North then we would have simply declared union with Turkey. This is not what TC want or have ever wanted (unlike GC for a long time btw). I know of no TC that calls themselves Turkish without qualification. They all consider themselves TC. Hopefully one day we can evolve from there being two seperate Cypriot identites into a single Cypriot identity but there is much hard work before us before we can even begin on that course. However if the world were to offer a solution based on double enosis with Greece and Turkey I do not think either Cypriot side would accept this. Surely that shows a strong Cypriot identity (all be it two different Cypriot identites and not one single one)?

[insan]

I have a hard time appreciating how strong the cypriot identity is in the northern part of the island. There are cultural activities in the southern part too, but this is not my point. It's the "preferential attachment" attitute towards either Greece or Turkey.

A natural consequence of the retrospection of TCs. Many decades lasted "Enosis" and "Majority Rule" assertions of GC ruling elite made Turkey a preferential attachment for vast majority of TCs.

And that issue is definitely strong in the northern part, is that not right?

It's true but as a deterrent force to balance the probable to be appear GC oppression rather than cultural.

Folk dances and music at school? Sure, but in their majority not Cypriot.

The Cypriot culture has always been the dominant factor in North. Settlers have arrived in several thousands; gradually. Therefore, most of them assimilated into TC culture. Moreover their Cyprus born children almost have no particular distinction than the TC children or youth. The settlers that came 20-30 years ago cannot be confused with the ones who came in last 10 years and the seasonal workers, visitors from Turkey.

So what do you mean by `brainwash'? Did it occur to you that the left-wingers may also be trying to brainwash you? Or is that kind of brainwash OK? Keep in mind that people that gain your trust are the worst "brainwashers" you could ever have...

I've always thought that left-wingers are more humane, idealist and accurate when compared with the nationalist right-wingers.

Unfortunately in the case of a solution we're stuck with a not very interesting flag and a not very nice national anthem. Of course the current RoC flag was described, at the time, as "a fried egg with a couple of parsley leaves"...

Frankly speaking to you, I haven't got much interest on this issue. Anything palatable that majority of Cypriots approve is acceptable for me.

Regards

[MicAtCyp]

As usual, we are all brain-washed creatures you are the twin of God knowing the absolute truth. Clap! Clap! Clap!

Calm down Insan and learn to listen carefully to what others are saying.
I did not say you are brain-washed and we are not.I said you are brain washed about Ataturk whereas we are not brainwashed about him

And by the way there are fanatics among the GCs who would react the same way like you when one dares to question the Godness of Grivas or Makarios or Sampson.The similarity of your reaction to theirs leaves me speechless!!

[antonis]

I think there is a very strong GC and TC identity that is seperate from that of either Greece or Turkey.

That's absolutely true; but there's also preferential attachment, which sometimes is in overdose. Creating a Cypriot identity is definitely not easy, but shouldn't that be our eventual goal? Does it help to name more than half of our streets "Makarios avenue"? Or not doing so means that we are forgetting our history? Do we still build monuments that remind us of the struggle against the british, eventhough at the time these people were fighting for enosis but only got independence? How much can we wipe off to reduce this preferential attachment? What is anyway a Cypriot identity? What do we teach our children about the past?

If there was not a strong Cypriot identity in the North then we would have simply declared union with Turkey. This is not what TC want or have ever wanted (unlike GC for a long time btw).

I can assure you that no rational GC thinks that Cyprus is better off uniting with Greece. Unfortunately you may have not declared union with Turkey in paper, but in all other respects you're completely controlled by Turkey - of course I realize it's hard to get away. So if your hypothetical solution of a double enosis was even proposed, you'd structurally not have any issues...

I know of no TC that calls themselves Turkish without qualification. They all consider themselves TC.

I would say most GC have the same attitude. But the majority in both cases finds difficulty calling ourselves Cypriots without further classification. Last time I visited the UK, the EU immigration control officer asked me the following question: "Are you from the greek part or the turkish part?" Astounded as I were, the officer clarified further "There are two parts in Cyprus, right?" I didn't reply immediately I kept staring at her. I eventually told her I was Cypriot... it took her another 4 mins hammering the keyboard to let me through.

[insan]

And by the way there are fanatics among the GCs who would react the same way like you when one dares to question the Godness of Grivas or Makarios or Sampson.The similarity of your reaction to theirs leaves me speechless!!

I was well aware of that the point you wanted to conclude was this. Questioning someone is one thing, allegging someone as brain-washed about him is another thing. Keep try to erase your guilt. You can simply put forward your opinions about him. There's no need for labeling us brain-washed about him.

[antonis]

A natural consequence of the retrospection of TCs. Many decades lasted "Enosis" and "Majority Rule" assertions of GC ruling elite made Turkey a preferential attachment for vast majority of TCs
....
It's true but as a deterrent force to balance the probable to be appear GC oppression rather than cultural.

This is a vicious cycle that has to end at some point, hopefully soon, so that we can look forward towards a united Cyprus. It is also a major concern to the GC side, that even after a solution, the strong attachment of the TCs to Turkey will be the root for many problems. This is why many GCs want a complete demilitarization eventually, with no "parental" Turkish, Greek or British rights. Of course you think that this is a trap... and your refusal to accept this is also seen as a trap to GCs.

[insan]

This is a vicious cycle that has to end at some point, hopefully soon, so that we can look forward towards a united Cyprus.

I agree with you that has to end at some point but it doesn't seem to me soon because GC leadership still keep insisting on "majority rule". Tassos clearly stated this so many times.

It is also a major concern to the GC side, that even after a solution, the strong attachment of the TCs to Turkey will be the root for many problems.

In my retrospective opinion, watering down the strong attachment on Turkey depends upon GCs attitudes towards TCs.

This is why many GCs want a complete demilitarization eventually, with no "parental" Turkish, Greek or British rights.

There's no problem for them with 15.000 national guard soldiers and 20.000+ reserves besides 4 times more population. TCs have the same concerns about National Guard just like GCs have concerns about Turkish army. So, we say lets build a genuine partnership based upon "political equality" of two communities then we can easily send all foreign troops to their homes.

Of course you think that this is a trap... and your refusal to accept this is also seen as a trap to GCs.

As long as GC leadership keep giving us the same messages cannot convince us to believe their fairy tales.

[antonis]

Insan,

You know what I hate most? Tags. "Majority rule" is a tag. So is "genuine partnership based upon political equality". In the past we had other types of tags. "Confederation", "sovereignty" etc. They ring equally bad in your brain as they do in mine. Only through the final text of an agreed solution you will be able to judge whether the "majority rules".

First of all Tassos is not alone, the 76% of the GC community said NO to the Annan plan. Noone knows what this NO means, and of course everyone is interpreting it any way he wants. That's a situation we have to live with until the GC politicians decide what changes the Annan plan needs before the GC community can say YES. In the meantime, Tassos will be there for another 3 years.

It is also a major concern to the GC side, that even after a solution, the strong attachment of the TCs to Turkey will be the root for many problems.

In my retrospective opinion, watering down the strong attachment on Turkey depends upon GCs attitudes towards TCs.

Perfect. We're already in the vicious cycle mode. Any ideas how to exit? And as for the troops, I was talking about an eventual demilitarization... and have in mind that for any solution proposal to work, we have to believe in it and make it work. The question is how to build trust between the two communities... we need more of that.