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Removing the disturbing names from Streets of Cyprus

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby cannedmoose » Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:44 pm

MicAtCyp wrote:Cannedmose I am not anti-British or anything in fact I happen to respect the British people "as people" despite the fact that I hate their eternal and hostile political attitude towards us.


You're not the only one who has a certain distrust of British politician MicAtCyp, ask the British voters when the election comes in May... problem is that Phony Tony is the best of a bad bunch.

MicAtCyp wrote:Well I tried my best to help you question yourself whether your assertation that "is not because you are British" might be false. And that the truth might be "it is exactly because you are British". Whether I ve been helpful or not, needs no public announcements. Keep it for yourself.


Whether or not I keep my own counsel is up to me MicAtCyp, that's not your choice. As for whether I question myself... yes I do on a daily basis, as someone researching hard on a subject so complex and fraught with tension, whenever you read something, hear someone's opinion or put an opinion forward yourself it is imperative to question your own assumptions first. So I don't say what I do without some degree of soul-searching first.

MicAtCyp wrote:PS.I did not miss the insinuations of the phrase "the monument lacks dignity".


As for my comment, my wording was a little careless. I respect the motives underlying the monument and I respect the meaning that it has to the audience it's directed at. If I wanted to, I could be offended by the statue's reference to the breaking of chains, but I recognise that the British Empire wasn't perfect and in Cyprus did function as a system of domination (why it had to do so in its latter years is another argument entirely).

However, I come from a different age, an age where Cyprus is an equal member of our European Union, where its people are citizens of Europe and have every right to compete with me on an equal and fair basis. I also come from an age where I have married a GC without discrimination from either side of the family and have indeed undergone the 'Cypriotisation' of my nuclear family, with my parents now living in Cyprus. Cyprus and Britain have bonds too strong to be broken and warped by our mutually odious political leaders. My only concern with the relationship is that the venom flying between our political elites will lead to a rise in anti-British xenophobia. I am glad that you are at least distancing yourself from that MicAtCyp and for that you have my respect.
Last edited by cannedmoose on Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby brother » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:22 pm

Absolutely, we are not brainwashed but we are under considerable pressure from many sources, take your pick.

But when micatcyp talks does he take into consideration that we can all say the same thing about gc, especially after the referandum, tassos had you all with his tears and i understand the arguement that you still would have voted 'oxi' but it most definately would not have been as high as 76%

And may i add that his election promises so far are just complete rubbish and he is not even trying to bring solution to cyprus even though so many gc think he is, now is that not brainwashing.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:36 pm

Insan wrote: When did I do this? Give me the link or quote it.


Read carefully:

Ataturk is an internationally respected personality, in spite of bigots within Turkey, middle east, South Cyprus and all around the world.
.... Keep try to erase your guilt.


Just look at your whole reaction..... Just look at the similarity of it compared to that of Grivas and Makarios supporters. Look at yourself!
Of course we are bigots, should feel guilty for just even questioning your God, but you are not brain-washed.

Whatever you say man.

PS. Imagine what would happen if I would not say Ataturk was also a great reformer. A nervous breakdown of our friend Insan maybe?
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Re: Removing the disturbing names from Streets of Cyprus

Postby insan » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:52 pm

insan wrote:
I understand why this disturbed you, insan and it disturbed me as well but this is exactly the problem. We perceive Grivas as a terrorist who brought nothing but misery to Cyprus, on the other hand, I'm sure there're people who consider him a freedom-fighter and hero. I love Ataturk and his ideals but there're Turks, let alone Greeks/GCs, who consider Ataturk as God-less drunk who tried to eradicate Islam from Turkey.

As you can see, even in a simple matter like naming the streets, we end up in a political discussion about who is what. What I suggest is to stay away from politics. Let's name our streets to names of flowers, for example. This might sound stupid but nobody will object to live in a Daisy Street, Rose Street, or Tulip street, right? Maybe we can ask street residents to rename their own street. Or maybe we can use Manhattan style street numbering, 1st street, 34th avenue etc.

The point is we can stay away from politics and avoid unnecessary discussions if we want to.



Hi metecyp;

I agree with you that nobody object to live in the streets bear the names of flowers or anything acceptable.


Ataturk is an internationally respected personality, in spite of bigots within Turkey, middle east, South Cyprus and all around the world. To the contrary of this, Grivas is an internationally disrespected, well known monarcho-fascist.



UNESCO Resolutionon the ATATURK CENTENNIAL

"Convinced that personalities who worked for understanding and cooperation between nations and international peace will be examples for future generations,
"Recalling that the hundredth anniversaryof the birth of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, founder of the Turkish Republic, will be celebrated in 1981,

"Knowing that he was an exceptional reformer in all fields relevant to the competence of UNESCO,

"Recognizing in particular that he was the leader of the first struggle given against colonialism and imperialism,


http://www.columbia.edu/cu/tsa/ata/hayati.html#unesco



As it is obviously seen in the above quotation; it was not a reaction to anyone's views but it was my opinion about Ataturk.


"bigots in South Cyprus" and "GCs are bigots" connote totally different things. While the first one connotes there are bigots in South Cyprus, the latter connote al GCs are bigots. What you said about TCs was that " All TCs are breain-washed about Ataturk". You are still trying to erase your guilt instead of saying your apologies.
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Postby magikthrill » Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:46 pm

I don't think Ataturk was involved at all in Cyprus (was he?). What I found disturbing about the north was that his statue is in front of every school (that's his statue right? otherwise i sound like an idiot!). I feel like since he is a Turkish national hero that helped establish the moder Republic of TUrkey, that stature represents the annexation of Cyprus to Turkey.

Otherwsie, it would be just as wrong to use his name on a street as it is wrong to use Greek revolutionary heros on streets.
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Postby Saint Jimmy » Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:53 pm

Guys, can someone clear something up for me?
When I was in the army, sort of near the Nicosia airport, there was a real big statue on the other side of the Green Line, and our officers told us that it's Ataturk's statue. It's facing the South, and one of its legs is in the air, as if ready to start walking in that direction. Also, there's some writing under the statue. Does anyone know what it says?
Because, some guy there told me that it's turkish for something along the lines of 'we got half, and eventually we'll get the rest'. I really think that's just army crap.
It is, right?
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Postby brother » Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:37 pm

Jimmy that is complete crap, i am not sure what it says but most have the the same saying "ne mutlu turkum diyene" which means "what a happy turk i am"
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Postby metecyp » Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:41 pm

magikthrill wrote:I feel like since he is a Turkish national hero that helped establish the moder Republic of TUrkey, that stature represents the annexation of Cyprus to Turkey.

No, it doesn't represent the annexation of Cyprus to Turkey and Ataturk is not just the founder of modern Turkey. He's a reformer. He tried to create a European country out of a Middle-East empire. Maybe he wasn't too successful but his reforms changed a lot in Turkey and the area.

TCs also accepted Ataturk's reforms, even more than Turks in Turkey. Even way before 1974, most of Ataturk's reforms were implemented among TCs. For example, TCs started using Latin alphabet instead of Ottoman alphabet. So the statue of Ataturk represents this change towards modernity not annexation of Cyprus to Turkey.
Otherwsie, it would be just as wrong to use his name on a street as it is wrong to use Greek revolutionary heros on streets.

Having said all these, I'll be fine with removing his name from streets in a united Cyprus because it is a motherland originated name given that the same is done on the GC side.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:12 pm

Thanks Cannedmoose for your reply with which I generally agree except of this comment:

Whether or not I keep my own counsel is up to me MicAtCyp, that's not your choice.


I beleive when our opinions are expressed publicly we should accept criticism, and sometimes "advice" without translating that as an effort "to interfere in our private life".

Brother wrote: But when micatcyp talks does he take into consideration that we can all say the same thing about gc, especially after the referandum, tassos had you all with his tears and i understand the arguement that you still would have voted 'oxi' but it most definately would not have been as high as 76%


Of course you can say that brother. However you can not say that to me personally without concrete evidence. For your information I critisised the Annan Plan and almost located all it's negatives from the 31/3/04.Ask Insan if you don't beleive. Papadopoulos speach was 10(?) days after, and HE DID NOT really mention the real problems of the Anan Plan.
If you think I am some sort of Papadopoulos supporter you are completely mistaken.

And by the way notice how ridicoulous is this old generation of Politicians is, Denktash was also crying with tears on TV, because the great Turkish Army would leave.... It is the mentalities of the Eokas and the TMTs man, why do you even bother with them.
Since Denktash will soon be gone, lets just hope Papadopoulos will show us some results towards a solution during the next 3 years. Otherwise we will kick him out and tell him we didn't need him to turn the Anan Plan down We could do it ourselves.
If he shows no results be sure we will kick him out, but certainly not replace him with a traitor like Anastasiades and his gang.
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Postby antonis » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:24 am

About this street naming business (which is the thread topic BTW). If we _have_ to use names of politicians, then they have to be of Cypriot origin preferably and be people that inspire both communities. But perhaps keeping a Grivas avenue would be almost equivalent of having a Turkes avenue (yikes) and that wouldn't help. I don't know how this would be implemented though, as changes seem difficult. And I don't appreciate how urgent this measure should be.
Since Denktash will soon be gone, lets just hope Papadopoulos will show us some results towards a solution during the next 3 years. Otherwise we will kick him out and tell him we didn't need him to turn the Anan Plan down We could do it ourselves.

Let's indeed hope that Papadopoulos will be given the chance to do something sometime soon, without being forced to. He seems reluctant to give the changes he wants on the Annan plan to the SG, as he explained the other day that the SG expects him to also propose what he is willing to give to the TC side in return - which he's more reluctant to do, as he thinks that we're already past our red lines.

In any case major changes will depend on how the parties do next year in the elections. Right now many people see Tassos as the person that came at the right point in time to save us from an orchestrated NATO minus Greece division plan.

There was this article by Kypros Hrisostomides in the Sunday press on how loosely connected `bipolar' federations are doomed to break into their two parts. The repeated statements of Papadopoulos that he wants a solution that unites the economy, the people, the institutes and customs point in the direction that he wants deep changes in the plan that will not create a situation where in case of a disagreement the option to move out will be easier than the option of working to restore things.

I think this is different from Cleride's philosophy - that a "step-by-step" approach should be adopted with the first step being a loose federation. Then trust would inevitably convince both communities that it's to the general welfare to synergize more closely, but that would have to be deferred in the future.
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