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bi zonal, bi communal federation

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby Sotos » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:03 pm

I don't know how that will be arranged but what is certain is that when we were agreeing for BBF we didn't agree to gift to the Turks the towns and villages that we are the majority!!!! :P :twisted:
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Postby Nikitas » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:05 pm

Phoenix,

In the past we were told that the federation will be based on the swiss model, or the belgian model etc. In ech of these cases the separation of the states is along ethnic lines, so in Switzerland you have the cantons which are Italian, French, German. So far the system is understandable. But there, in Switzerland an Italian Swiss person can move about freely, live and have property weherever they want, etc. In our case special reservations are made regarding freedom of movement, establishment and all the other freedoms in a federal system because the Turkish side insists that is the only way it can feel safe.

If you read the Annan plan you will get dizzy trying to follow the twists and turns of property ownership in the "other" state, and there limitations even on owning a holiday home and how long you can use it etc. Result? A German can own property anywhere in Cyprus, Cypriots can own property anywhre in Europe, but not in Cyprus! Which explains why the plan was ditched.

So the Federal really is the problem. And no one wants to deal with it openly and tell people what's what, too much of a hot potato.
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Postby humanist » Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:49 pm

My sugestion is to leeave the boundary as is, north and south state with a federal government. north state to be administered byt TC majority state governement, south state administered by majority GC governement and other minority groups. Federal governement as per 1960's constitution.

Demilitarisation of the whole Island
Right of return for all refugees TC's & GC's

Church land in the north to be used to accomodate TC's who do not wish to return to their ancestral homes in the south. They can either sell their properties or exchange them with GC's who do not wish to return to the north

Buffer zone to be bought by the Federal Government, and turn it into peace park for all Cypriots to use. Actually a nature reserve will be more environmentally friendly. Everyone gets into the EU no isolation everyone shares the oil profits.

There you go who would vote for humanist as your next president.

My policy will be that by the next generation I will have a proud Cypriot people and there is no distinction on linguistics or race. The best woman/ man wins peoples votes .
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Postby observer » Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:22 am

observer wrote: Bizonal - Two Zones. We've got that.
Kifeas wrote: Do we??? Can you show us the map of the two zones then?

I assume that this is to make a point rather than a genuine question. I have two maps of Cyprus; one labels the North of the Island “Inaccessable due to Turkish Occupation”; the other one labels the North of the Island “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus”. Not saying how things should be, just saying how things are. Two Zones.


Piratis wrote: Maybe Observer means that it is easy to understand what "bi-zonal" means. Obviously we never agreed on where and how big each zone will be. What should be taken for granted is that the towns, villages and areas that have a legal GC majority should be part of the zone where GCs are the majority.

Basically I am in agreement with Piratis.


Phoenix wrote: Piratis, what happens if a zone is created to cover an area with a clear GC majority, but there remain the odd village or town which is predominantly GC, but lies outside the zone?

Here we come to the central problem. It is a big contradiction for GC politicians to say that they agree with a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation, which means that each community has its own zone, it’s own coherent area, and then at the same time demand that every GC has his property returned, which means, given the mixture of populations prior to 74 (or 63 if you prefer) that you can not have two coherent, distinct zones.

In order for Cyprus to be bi-zonal some GCs are going to have to give up thoughts of having their land returned (as are some TCs, although the majority of TCs have now accepted this as can be seen by the very small number who have chosen to live in the current GC zone). Is there a GC politician brave enough to point this out, and are the GCs willing to accept it? Unless they are, BBF isn't going anywhere.
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Postby Kifeas » Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:45 pm

observer wrote:observer wrote: Bizonal - Two Zones. We've got that.
Kifeas wrote: Do we??? Can you show us the map of the two zones then?

I assume that this is to make a point rather than a genuine question. I have two maps of Cyprus; one labels the North of the Island “Inaccessable due to Turkish Occupation”; the other one labels the North of the Island “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus”. Not saying how things should be, just saying how things are. Two Zones.



I assume that poor “observer” doesn’t realize that there are no two zones in Cyprus, in a formal, official and recognized sense, but only an area of Cyprus that is under illegal Turkish occupation!

This is the map of Cyprus that the EU recognizes and advertises in its website, as the formal, legal and accurate situation in Cyprus!

Where do you see the two zones on this official EU map, apart from the district boundaries?

http://europa.eu/abc/maps/members/cyprus_en.htm

Image

http://europa.eu/abc/maps/members/cyprus_en.htm
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Postby humanist » Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:48 pm

Ditch the idea of BBF ;)
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Postby Kifeas » Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:12 pm

observer wrote:
Here we come to the central problem. It is a big contradiction for GC politicians to say that they agree with a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation, which means that each community has its own zone, it’s own coherent area, and then at the same time demand that every GC has his property returned, which means, given the mixture of populations prior to 74 (or 63 if you prefer) that you can not have two coherent, distinct zones.

In order for Cyprus to be bi-zonal some GCs are going to have to give up thoughts of having their land returned (as are some TCs, although the majority of TCs have now accepted this as can be seen by the very small number who have chosen to live in the current GC zone). Is there a GC politician brave enough to point this out, and are the GCs willing to accept it? Unless they are, BBF isn't going anywhere.



Observer, what we will never accept is the illegitimate notion and idea (-the misfortunate ones that the failed Annan plan tried to introduce and institutionalize,) that a B&B federation should be equated with the transferring of ownership of 30% of our country to the TC community, alone; and the subsequent eradication of our historical,political and cultural rights (as Greek Cypriots,) stemming out of our existence as a society in this part of our country for centuries upon centuries! If this is what you imply, when saying that each community will have its own zone, then forget it! We will never accept it!

If on the other hand, you only mean that in each zone it is anticipated that the majority of Cypriot permanent residents will be from each community respectively, and consequently the local (state) apparatus and government of the north will be (by virtue of majority) under a TC community political domination and democratic control (not ethnic ownership as such,) and always to the extent that the agreed local (state level) competencies will allow it, then we are ready to discuss it!
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Postby Nikitas » Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:41 pm

Kifeas put it very well-

"If on the other hand, you only mean that in each zone it is anticipated that the majority of Cypriot permanent residents will be from each community respectively, and consequently the local (state) apparatus and government of the north will be (by virtue of majority) under a TC community political domination and democratic control (not ethnic ownership as such,) and always to the extent that the agreed local (state level) competencies will allow it, then we are ready to discuss it!"

One of the best descriptions of an acceptable federal structure I have seen. In the terms is is framed I dont think there can be any objections. It affords, through political domination, the safegurads of security and safety demanded by the TC community while coverin the GC preoccupation with property rights and heritage issues.

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Postby Get Real! » Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:46 pm

humanist wrote:Ditch the idea of BBF ;)

One by one you're all coming to your senses... :)
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Postby Viewpoint » Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:41 pm

humanist wrote:Ditch the idea of BBF ;)


No chance, BBF and political equality are supported by the UN.
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