Cyprus-Forum.com

[antonis]

The personally should be found liable for it.

Indeed they should, but Turkey (who is the only party to blame for this story) should make a personal effort to find a solution and protect its citizens. This is a war crime. We live in the 21st century and legitimizing ethnic cleansing techniques, one of which is creating settlements (just as Israel is doing in the Gaza strip) is unacceptable.

But blaming everything on Turkey is a very simplistic approach employed by every GC since the beginning.

So tell me, why do you think Turkey is not entirely to blame for the settlers issue? Or was it not done on purpose?

[Viewpoint]

Very diplomatic approach Agios Amvrosios,"Here is $10,000 now piss off out of my property." Im sure you would get a very positive response, Goodluck.

[brother]

He is a very angry person and some of his responses are just not correct but noone is perfect hence we will have to accept him as this strange person who has a jekyll and hyde character i guess.

[turkcyp]

Indeed they should, but Turkey (who is the only party to blame for this story) should make a personal effort to find a solution and protect its citizens. This is a war crime. We live in the 21st century and legitimizing ethnic cleansing techniques, one of which is creating settlements (just as Israel is doing in the Gaza strip) is unacceptable.

So tell me, why do you think Turkey is not entirely to blame for the settlers issue? Or was it not done on purpose?

Oh c'mon.

Now you are blaming for ethnic cleansing without even consider the reasons that she acted that way. This is what I call simplistic approach. There is a cause and effect in every aspect of life.

For example, killing somebody is wrong, but killing somebody in the name of self defense is understandable, if he is also trying to kill you.

Forcing some people out of their homes (which I admit is a mild form of ethnic cleansing, ethnic cleansing from a region instead of from the face of the world) is definitely unacceptable if it is done for reasons like stopping some other of ethnic cleansing than it merely accounts for separation of societies which is acceptable.

Now you may even come here and claim that there was no threat of ethnic cleansing on TCs Cyprus before 20th July 1974, then I would tell you to come and look at the period of 63-74 from the binoculars of TCs. 1/4 of TC society forced out of their homes living in enclaves, under constant economic embargo by GCs, can not leave their enclaves without escort. I guess that was nothing from your perspective. (I agree with the fact that things improved a little after 67 but were you expecting Turkey to stay silent when Nicos Sampson "the known Turk hater and killer became president with a coup". Were you expecting us to feel safer and wait naively for our demise.

As I always have said causes and cause. By just labeling Turkey the only one to blame is very simplistic approach.

I have been talking against this simplistic approach since the first day, I have become member of this forum. What is this simplistic approach. It is the same approach employed by boulio as well. Trying to justify your double standards with other’s double standards. Trying to justify your wrong doing with other wrong doing, as if two wrongs would ever make a right. Trying to blame all the evil on what we call enemy, without even thinking that we might have a part in things. Because this kind op approach only cause us a dead cycle.

I have said it before and let me say it again, “Self-criticism” is the way out of this. Can you criticize and blame yourself for your own mistakes and wrong doings as much as you blame others. There is a saying in Turkish, they say “cuvaldizi kendine, igneyi baskasina” meaning poke the big needle to yourself and small one to others. (big needle is the best I can come up for cuvaldiz )

Can you the above approach. I can. I admit many mistakes we TCs and Turkey had done in this mess that we call Cyprus problem, before and after 1974.
- TCs were wrong because they did not embrace RoC as their own, and looked for a small opportunity to leave.
- TCs were wrong because they follow the footsteps of nationalists
- TCs were wrong because we did not negotiate in good faith after 1974 knowing that times is on our side
- Turkey was wrong because they did not have to kick the GCs outside their homes
- Turkey was wrong because if they acted more like an guarantor then an invading army for the GCs
- Any atrocities ever created by any army or military force can not be acceptable under any condition anyway, so I do not even have to mention that, it is a given.
- I can go on more, but these were on top of my head very quick..

Can you do the same for yourself without finding any excuse of your wrongs. Because once you start finding reason it means you are justifying, your wrongs with others actions. You are not supposed to say that we are sorry but this is the reason. Excuse my language, but f..k the excuses. Can you come clean without excuses? Can you come and say that yes there were atrocities and ethnic cleansing for TCs before 1974.

You know who should be giving excuses. I should be giving excuses for your wrongs. You should be giving excuses for my wrongs. But we should not be giving excuses for our own wrongs. I should be the one that is saying, “Yes, GCs had make me suffer, but this was their excuse” and you should be doing the same for me “Yes, Turkish army has forced me out of my house, but this is their excuse”

If excuses are used this way, then they become forgiving and reconciliatory. But if excuses are used to justify your own actions then we are not going anywhere for a while so we rather grab a snickers. (I cant help myself making stupid jokes like this, )

If you can not do the above things, then all my “soul searching” and “self-criticizing” would be in vain, as it is necessary for both sides to do it. Other wise this “self- criticizing” of only one side immediately can turn into exploitation of one side of the other sides’ guilt, which is hardly helpful to breaking the cycle, and cause more distrust and more excuses to do wrongs.

As I have said it, we have to do it together at the same time, otherwise I am not going to sit and keep on self-criticizing and you turn back and exploit my my guilts. That would only make me hate you more in the long run.

Anyway, again a long and boring post from Turkcyp,

I hoped you have read it to the end, because I know I can go round and round bubble on things usually,

Take care of yourself

[boulio]

two wrongs dont make a right,i never knew that ethnic cleansing had levels,low mild high,very interesting,i bout i forgot i simplify things.

[turkcyp]

two wrongs dont make a right,i never knew that ethnic cleansing had levels,low mild high,very interesting,i bout i forgot i simplify things.

Can you do what I have asked for in the above post boulio?

Can you stop finding excuses for your own wrongs including your own "ethnic-cleansing".

I have already accepted all my mistakes and ready to start fresh, and as I have said ready to give excuses on your behalf. Are you ready to do the same things?

As I have said, I am not going to go and keep on "self-critizing" while you never do "self-critizing" and exploit my guilt. That, I can not do.

So either we do it together, or we keep on being in this cycle.

p.s. And yes you are employing a very simplistic approach and a narrow mindednes if you do not slef-criticism and keep on finding excuses for your own wrongs.

[magikthrill]

Forcing some people out of their homes (which I admit is a mild form of ethnic cleansing, ethnic cleansing from a region instead of from the face of the world) is definitely unacceptable if it is done for reasons like stopping some other of ethnic cleansing than it merely accounts for separation of societies which is acceptable.

Yes turkcyp. It is excusable that my half-blind grandmother was removed from her home because she was a great threat to TC society.

The ends do not justify the means my friend.

[turkcyp]

Yes turkcyp. It is excusable that my half-blind grandmother was removed from her home because she was a great threat to TC society.

The ends do not justify the means my friend.

Do you guys read the whole topic, or you just simply pick and choose sentences from the topic. This is the second time happening recently.

I am kindly asking again,

Do not take one sentence and quote it alone out of the context, out of the whole post, because it looses its meaning. First MicAtCyp and in another post and now you,

Please this is not ethical when we are discussing things.


p.s
About the topic at hand:
Read the whole post, and you would understand that I was not trying to justify the expulsion of GCs from their own houses, or I was not trying to find excuses.

Read the whole post and you would understand that what I was trying to do is to show a way to break the cycle. As I have said, this cycle is not going to be broken if we keep on giving self-justifying excuses, without any self-criticism. And blaming everything on Turkey does not involve a shred of self-criticism.

What happened in the above topic happens all the time in every topic. Somebody says something, and the other person immediately says but this is the excuse for it (like I did with the expulsion of GCs), or keep on criticizing only the other party (like blaming only Turkey) without a shred of self-criticism. Both of which is done by both sides of the argument all the time over and over, so we are in the cycle over and over.

As I have said, the only way we can break the cycle is “self-criticism” and no excuses. I am ready to accept all my fault without any excuse, (as I did later on the topic about expulsion of GCs). Are you ready to do the same? If not, then I will not do it either.

[-mikkie2-]

Now you are blaming for ethnic cleansing without even consider the reasons that she acted that way. This is what I call simplistic approach. There is a cause and effect in every aspect of life.

Turkcyp,

Lets look at the facts Turkcyp. In 1974, the vast majority of TC's lived in the south, the north was almost exclusively populated by GC's. Turkey invaded. What happened after that? The vast majority of GC's fled south to get away from your very friendly Turkish soldiers (raping and pillaging as they were going along). The majority of TC's stayed south. These TC's when then FORCED to move north by the Turks by threatening the RoC with further action and concluding in an 'exchange of populations agreement' which was not an agreement at all but a demand from the Turks. I remember seeing pictures of TC's being hearded onto trucks by the UN crying and screaming because they didn't want to leave their homes.

This IS ethnic cleansing turkcyp and there is absolutely NO WAY this can be justified because this was forced on the TC's and GC's mainly by the actions of Turkey. The problem in Cyprus could have been solved if TUrkey fullfilled her obligations as a guarantor power and re-established constitutional order as per 1960.

[turkcyp]

Turkcyp,

Lets look at the facts Turkcyp. In 1974, the vast majority of TC's lived in the south, the north was almost exclusively populated by GC's. Turkey invaded. What happened after that? The vast majority of GC's fled south to get away from your very friendly Turkish soldiers (raping and pillaging as they were going along). The majority of TC's stayed south. These TC's when then FORCED to move north by the Turks by threatening the RoC with further action and concluding in an 'exchange of populations agreement' which was not an agreement at all but a demand from the Turks. I remember seeing pictures of TC's being hearded onto trucks by the UN crying and screaming because they didn't want to leave their homes.

This IS ethnic cleansing turkcyp and there is absolutely NO WAY this can be justified because this was forced on the TC's and GC's mainly by the actions of Turkey. The problem in Cyprus could have been solved if TUrkey fullfilled her obligations as a guarantor power and re-established constitutional order as per 1960.

And now it makes three,

I am not going to repeat to you what I have repeated to others about the subject,

All I will say is that

"Do not take one sentence of mine out of the context and quote it"

And after saying that, I will also add that this is going to be my last reply on this topic, because it seems that you guys either "have a tendency to not read the topics as a whole or read it as as a whole but just quote a portion of it that suits to you"

Good luck with that,

p.s. Also your version of the facts are distorted as well.
1) Majority of TCs already lived in the north in 1974. Around 60of the TC society were living in north.
2) The 40% of the TCs thatused to live in the south, were not forced to move to north, but majority actually escaped to north trying to hide from GC authorities because GC authorities were not letting them pass to north. People were hiding themselves in truck and backs of the cars trying to cross the green line.
3) Again I have never tried to justify the explusion of GCs from their homes, neither I try to justify the attocities they have faced. But with the lack of "self-criticism" on your side, you were not expecting any different answer from my behalf were you? As I have said it earlier, I am ready to accept the my faults as long as you do the same, (and if you read the whole post, you would have realized that I did condemd those actions.) But if you do not do the same, why would I continue doing it? We can only break the cycle if we both do it at the same time. Seeing no intent from your side for self-criticism, why do you expect me to criticize myself?