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Annan division plan VS Piratis division plan.

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby michalis5354 » Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:50 am

Piratis wrote:Michalis,

I understood the plan very well. You seem, like many others to be confused.
Just by calling something united it doesn’t mean that in reality it is. We also have United Nations and we all know how united they are, especially during the cold war.
This plan creates a Divided Cyprus with the name United Cyprus.



I dont think I am confused , I get more confused when I just listen of some one sided propaganda and articles by people that were supposed to be ONLY UNBIASED and serve the interest of cypriots GCs and TCs and the long term interest of Cyprus as a whole


Belgium is not a divided Belgium , United Kingdom is not a divided kingdom yet the Anan plan is a framework based on swisse and belgium model.

The Anan plan is a framework based on a federal model that the Greekcypriot side had accepted long time ago. And all these excuses about functionality unfortunately make the plan more and more DISFUNCTIONAL !
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Postby markou96 » Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:47 pm

Michali,

I think you forget that experts, such as international law analysts, argued the disfuctionality of the plan. I'm pointing out only a few points:

"Είναι συνεπώς προφανές ότι, σε περίπτωση που θα διαπιστωθεί ότι η κεντρική κυβέρνηση δεν είναι σε θέση να ασκήσει πραγματικό έλεγχο πάνω σε ένα ομόσπονδο κρατίδιο, το οποίο έχει συγκροτημένη διοικητική δομή και ασκεί εξουσία πάνω σε λαό που κατοικεί στη συγκεκριμένη γεωγραφική περιοχή που βρίσκεται κάτω από τον πραγματικό του έλεγχο, το ομόσπονδο αυτό κρατίδιο μπορεί να διεκδικήσει και δικαιούται να αποκτήσει καθεστώς ανεξάρτητου κράτους"

Furthermore, the plan places Greece and Turkey in a position to make decisions regarding the land of the island. Specifically, no nation or organization is to place its troops on Cyprus without the permission of these two countries. I thought we were a sovereign nation!!

Also the fact that the two seperate states provide the founations for a split between the three entities seems a bit unfair to me. A state can be recognized if the following conditions are met:
1) A geographical area held by a soveign authority
2) An indigenous people
3) Authority as practised by the entity over its area

In addition to that, let me refer to the fact that the G/C state will have no real power in the T/C state and in effect no real power over its land, even though we will be considering our island as free and our own.
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Postby markou96 » Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:57 pm

Pirati,

I do not pretend that I am an expert of politics but I believe that a better solution will present itself after we officially join the E.U. I don't believe that the E.U. will allow Turkey to occupy any of its area. I understand why our leadership and everybody else is trying to find a solution before May but I believe they are simply trying too hard.

Turkey will not in anyway be accepted in the E.U. without first withdrawing from Cyprus. If we can just wait. And what if our leaders constantly remind the French, the Germans, the Dutch and the rest of Europe that they are cowards by allowing Turkey to remain on European land? I think they will react in a way that will benefit us.

I believe a better solution would have been found if we were simply a bit more like Denktash. But we lack the guts to do anything about our land. We learned to sit back and relax and let others to do the work for us. If we don't care, and that is how we appear, then why should anybody else?

The best and most fair solutions would have been to be able to go back on how things, I'm refering to the land, were before the split in our government.

Turkish Cypriots are a minority and should be treated as such and not be elevated into a statehood.
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Postby metecyp » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:11 pm

Markou96,

Metacyp you sound like an educated individual who happens to care deeply about our land, Cyprus. But let us not forget an important issue. It is not the Turkish Cypriots, about 150-200 thou., who were evicted from their houses.

I'm not denying the G/C refuges. What happenned to them was wrong, and I hope as many of them return back to their houses with Annan Plan. What I'm asking is the same acknowledgement for T/C refugees of 1963 and 1974. Although not in as great numbers, there are T/C refugees. I'm also asking for acknowledgement of sufferrings of T/Cs between 1963-1974 and an apology for T/C exclusion from Rep. of Cyprus and its hellenization.
Also, Metacyp, what makes you believe that Turkey is your friend and ally, and that Denktash is working for his people? Unless I'm mistaken, the occupied areas are very poor, underdeveloped and generally seem to have been left back in the middle ages.

I didn't say that Denktas works for his people. If you read my earlier posts, you'll see that I said what Denktas wants is not necessarily what the whole T/C community wants. North is pooer than the south, but "left back in middle ages" is very harsh and unrealistic. There's nothing middle age about north. If you've never been to north, I invite you, I'll show you around and prove that there's nothing middle age about it.
The problem, I believe, is that the Turkish Cypriots are forgetting the fact that everything took place because some superpowers, namely the Great Britain, decided to seed a sense of national identity to the Cypriots, especially the Turkish Cypriots, before leaving the island after the liberation fight of EOKA. Before that, the T/C weren't quite screaming for a state of their own and they were contend with simply living on this land.

Yes, superpowers played a major role, but you cannot blame everything on them. We, Cypriots, made many mistakes ourselves. I heard stories from the older generation how their villages were occupied by G/C extremists in 1974, and they were kept in their village schools all together, not knowing what would happen to them for days, and then Turkish army came and save them. Now, for these people who experienced such horrible incidents, superpowers are the secondary issue, because they experienced something horrible caused by G/Cs, and the Turkish soldiers saved them from the situation and that's all they'll remember when they think about Cyprus problem.
And before you say anything let me remind you that you are a minority on this land and all this is just unheard of. The injustice done to us is unbelievable. Never before I heard of the outragous claims your leader is making, and before you say that he is not a representative of your people make sure that he is not sitting on the negogiating table.

Yes, T/Cs are minority in numbers, but not in political power according to Republic of Cyprus. I'm not getting into the argument of "no minority has such rights", it's useless. We have Republic of Cyprus, and you tell the whole world that it is the legitimate government on the island. Then, respect its laws and rights given to T/Cs in it. And Denktas being on the negotiating table is determined by Turkey, not T/Cs.
I understand you love this land the same way that I do...maybe even more, but demanding an autonomous state or even an autonomous community goes against all notions of fairness and justice. You comprise merely a 15% of the total population for crying out loud!!

18% for your information, but it doesn't matter. We're just demanding a federal state, something like Switzerland, Belgium. In Switzerland, there are many ethnic minorities and they have their own seperate regions. Do you call Switzerland a divided country? No, because it consists of many small pieces that form the whole federal system. Same will happen in Cyprus as well. Federation was accepted by Makarios in 1976, now don't try to tell me that I'm asking more than I deserve.
It promotes seperatism and ethnisism in an already over sensitive country. By calling for two seperate ethnic entities as seperate states/communities it is simply telling us that we are not all Cypriots but that we are Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots.

Annan plan does not create two distincly seperate states. Individual states are as seperate as the federal government allows them to be, end of discussion.
What are you so afraid of? We are certainly not the people of the 60's and I'm pretty sure that our government is strong enough now, as opposed back then, to protect its interests.

I'm not afraid of anything. But I do realize that there might be some people who experienced horrible incidents in the past, and they would want some seperation for a while. Now, what we need to do is respect the fears and desires of these people, and give peace a chance. If everything goes well, not parts of Annan plan will be obselete anyway.
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Postby markou96 » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:00 pm

I'm not denying the G/C refuges. What happenned to them was wrong, and I hope as many of them return back to their houses with Annan Plan. What I'm asking is the same acknowledgement for T/C refugees of 1963 and 1974. Although not in as great numbers, there are T/C refugees. I'm also asking for acknowledgement of sufferrings of T/Cs between 1963-1974 and an apology for T/C exclusion from Rep. of Cyprus and its hellenization.


I believe that it is the Turkish Cypriot representatives that withdraw from the combined government back in the 60's, to the words of Pr. Papadopoulos. You opted to exclude yourself, or at least your leaders did.
Turkish Cypriots have always being part of the unoccupied areas and have worked here and prospered. Granted their numbers are minimal but those who chose to be in the south are the living prove that we are not the monsters you are taught we are.

I heard stories from the older generation how their villages were occupied by G/C extremists in 1974, and they were kept in their village schools all together, not knowing what would happen to them for days, and then Turkish army came and save them


At least they were saved...we are still missing our loved ones. Personally I never met my uncle. MISSING!

I didn't say that Denktas works for his people. If you read my earlier posts, you'll see that I said what Denktas wants is not necessarily what the whole T/C community wants


If you cannot impose Democratic standards on yourselves, what makes you believe that you can convince me that you can impose a democratic state in my land? If Denktash is not your representative and not wanted by its people, overthrow him through Democratic means. If you can't then I suggest that you reconsider your people's ideas and values. Despotic states usually lay the provisions for fanatizing, through propaganda, its people. It's a way of control.

occupied by G/C extremists in 1974


EXTREMISTS!! Emotionally overcharged, by the British and the CIA, extremists.


We're just demanding a federal state, something like Switzerland, Belgium. In Switzerland, there are many ethnic minorities and they have their own seperate regions


I don't think that the Swiss had a land, invaded by one of the minorities and then opted for seperate regions under a federal government. Comparing Cyprus with any other country is unfair and you know why? Because NO other country would allow something like this to happen. We were invaded by Turkey in 1974 and we are still occupied by Turkish troops. Why is it so difficult for you to understand? If things were to go back as they were even before the 60's then I wouldn't mind it a bit. Actually, most probably I would be sipping on a cup of coffee with you in our local kafene.

The Cypriot Constitution as provided in the agreements of Zurich was so complexed and dysfunctional that the new government only lasted for 2.5 years. Yes, Makarios, tried to change the constitution in order to make it more functional and so the state could prosper, and after advice from Kuchiuk (sorry from mispelling). That is why the Turkish Cypriot representatives decided to leave the government. but Metacyp the government proposed now under the Anan plan is even more complex that the one we had before.

Now, what we need to do is respect the fears and desires of these people, and give peace a chance


I totally agree with you, but under the proposed plans there is no way that our peace will last. Just think about it from our point of view, and don't even bother telling us how you felt. Imigined that for 4 years you sacrificed a lot of your youth in order to have a seperate state of your own, away from the British and as soon as you achieved that the Greeks invaded from the south and captured all the land up to Lefkosia and held it captive for 30 years, how would you have felt? If you saw all your mosques sacrilaged and pillaged? If a staggering 40% of the Turkish population was a refugee in its own land? If your house, the house you grew up and made all your dreams in, was occupied now by an invader? If everything you have achieved and all the ideals you believed in as a nation are about to dissappear? How would you have felt? If have your family was missing and you never knew their fate?

Why do Turkish Cypriots ask for the outrageous? Let's all go back the way we were. We used to live together in the same communities and we used to be called Cypriots...not Greek Cypriot or Turkish Cypriots...just Cypriots. And now after an act of war and an illegal occupation you ask to be seperated from the LEGALLY formed Republic of Cyprus and you expect us to conform with that.
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Postby Piratis » Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:56 am

Why do Turkish Cypriots ask for the outrageous?


Because they think the can get it. People are greedy by nature, I don't blame them, the great majority of people (world wide) are like that. We are like that also.

They think they can get it because the Turkish propaganda convinced them that they have the right to get it, and because our leaders until today kept compromising and accepting almost everything.

But no matter what our leaders say, Cyprus is a democratic country and the people have the final word (probably this is not the case on the other side). And people have shown that by accepting federation we reached the bottom of the compromises we can make. Anything worst than a federation (USA style) would not be accepted.

A federation like that should be VERY satisfactory for a minority of 18%.

Soon Turkish Cypriots will face their own "realities". They will have 2 options:

1) Reunite Cyprus in a true federation, be equal Cypriot and European citizens, get rid of the Turkish control and secure a better future for them and their children

OR

2) Waste several more years as an unrecognized state, serve as a huge Turkish military base and be controlled by Turkey living in an undemocratic and underdeveloped edge of the world. After some years maybe Pakistan and Azerbaijan will recognize them .. Hooray!!

But even if we assume that one day they will manage to get a solution like “piratis plan”, this will be much worst for them than choosing 1.

So metecyp and other Turkish Cypriots you read this: They made you believe you can have something that is so unreasonable that you will never have it. Wake up and see that you can still have something very very good that will be fair for both communities on this island and it is actually even better for you.
Your interests and Turkey's interests are not common. But they have brainwashed you so much that you keep fighting for Turkey’s interests instead of your own.
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Postby metecyp » Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:39 am

I believe that it is the Turkish Cypriot representatives that withdraw from the combined government back in the 60's, to the words of Pr. Papadopoulos. You opted to exclude yourself, or at least your leaders did.
Turkish Cypriots have always being part of the unoccupied areas and have worked here and prospered. Granted their numbers are minimal but those who chose to be in the south are the living prove that we are not the monsters you are taught we are.

Are any of these "minimal" T/Cs living in the south represented in government? Is any mayor ever selected from these T/Cs living in the south? I guess not. I'm not saying that G/Cs are monsters as people. We're all people. But T/Cs with no special rights are doomed to agree what G/Cs would say in governmental matters.
At least they were saved...we are still missing our loved ones. Personally I never met my uncle. MISSING!

I'm sorry about your missing people but let me assure you that there are missing T/Cs as well from 1960s and 1974. When it comes to Cyprus problem, both sides have refuges, both sides have missing people, both sides lost people in the war.
I don't think that the Swiss had a land, invaded by one of the minorities and then opted for seperate regions under a federal government. Comparing Cyprus with any other country is unfair and you know why? Because NO other country would allow something like this to happen. We were invaded by Turkey in 1974 and we are still occupied by Turkish troops. Why is it so difficult for you to understand?

I don't think that Swiss majority tried to opress and eliminate one of its minorities. If that was the case, I'm sure somebody would do something, like US did in Kosovo. Is US an invader because it tried to save Albanians in Kosovo from Serbs? I don't think so.
If your house, the house you grew up and made all your dreams in, was occupied now by an invader? If everything you have achieved and all the ideals you believed in as a nation are about to dissappear? How would you have felt? If have your family was missing and you never knew their fate?

I'm sorry about your losses. But I have similar questions to you. How would you have felt if you were excluded from the internationally recognized goverment of your country? How would you have felt if you lived in a country recognized by nobody and you had a passport not recognized anywhere, and you could not even watch an international soccer game because of the embargos? How would you had to stop and be checked 3 times when you wanted to travel from Famagusta to Nicosia? (indeed this happenned between 1963-1974)? And would you cheer for Greek army if your village was surrounded by T/C extremists and you were saved by Greek army? Or would you call Greek army invaders?
And now after an act of war and an illegal occupation you ask to be seperated from the LEGALLY formed Republic of Cyprus and you expect us to conform with that.

No, we are asking two weak entities that would ensure some seperation and security and we are asking a strong federal government that combines these entities into one government THAT WORKS FOR BOTH COMMUNITIES OF THE ISLAND. That's all, nothing more, nothing less.
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Postby metecyp » Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:52 am

They think they can get it because the Turkish propaganda convinced them that they have the right to get it, and because our leaders until today kept compromising and accepting almost everything.

Nonsense. Blame it all on "Turkish propaganda". What about the propaganda going on your side? You live in Republic of Cyprus, a bicommunal republic with extra rights given to T/Cs, and it doesn't bother you a bit to tell the whole world that what you have in the south is indeed Republic of Cyprus even though T/Cs have been excluded from it for 40 years. I can tell that you're so not brainwashed! Your politicians made you believe that even the rights given in Republic of Cyprus are too much, and there will be a new solution with less rights to Turkish Cypriots.
A federation like that should be VERY satisfactory for a minority of 18%.

What is Annan plan? Isn't that a federation of two states?
Your interests and Turkey's interests are not common. But they have brainwashed you so much that you keep fighting for Turkey’s interests instead of your own.

Give us a reason to fight for our common interest. Show us that you truly believe T/Cs are part of this island, and they have all the rights given to them in Republic of Cyprus. Make me feel welcomed and make me feel that I'm part of this country like you. Then, I'll work for our common interest.
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Postby Piratis » Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:41 am

Nonsense. Blame it all on "Turkish propaganda". What about the propaganda going on your side? You live in Republic of Cyprus, a bicommunal republic with extra rights given to T/Cs, and it doesn't bother you a bit to tell the whole world that what you have in the south is indeed Republic of Cyprus even though T/Cs have been excluded from it for 40 years. I can tell that you're so not brainwashed! Your politicians made you believe that even the rights given in Republic of Cyprus are too much, and there will be a new solution with less rights to Turkish Cypriots.

What about the Turkish invasion and the 30.000 of Turkish army currently occupying Cyprus? It is ridiculous to say that we exclude you from Republic of Cyprus when you illegally occupy one third of the Republic you demand your rights from!

What is Annan plan? Isn't that a federation of two states?


A federation of two states would also be if T/C take 1% of the land and all go and live there. Does this mean that you would accept such thing because it is a federation?

What I said is a federation like USA, not just anything given the name federation or "united".
I believe I am clear about this.

Give us a reason to fight for our common interest. Show us that you truly believe T/Cs are part of this island, and they have all the rights given to them in Republic of Cyprus. Make me feel welcomed and make me feel that I'm part of this country like you. Then, I'll work for our common interest.


T/C are part of this island. And once the occupation is over nobody can take your rights, even if we wanted to (but we don't). Cyprus is a democratic country and part of the EU. Do not confuse us with Turkey.

But I don’t understand why I have to show you anything. Why don’t I ask from you to show me that I am part of this island? Why do you have to ask me to show you something?

I repeat:
I do not blame you. Everybody wants to get as much as possible. What you get in Annan plan is possible only on paper. We will never accept such thing – period.

The maximum compromise the G/C can make is a federation not very different from the one in the USA. This should be very satisfactory for a small minority.

There is absolutely no space for any compromise beyond that. Why? Because anything worst than that would be worst than division for us. So why would we accept it?

So in reality a USA style federation is the best you can get. You can either get this or remain divided and enemies. There are no other options.
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Postby michalis5354 » Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:14 pm

markou96 wrote:Michali,

In addition to that, let me refer to the fact that the G/C state will have no real power in the T/C state and in effect no real power over its land, even though we will be considering our island as free and our own.


Markou,

You have yourself divided island only in your mind .The Plan never says that the two regions- the GC and TC - act independently. They have their OWN Administrative LAws , but they do not ACT INDEPENDENTLY . THis is very WRONG Of you and it shows again that how much misinformation is around. The Central government of the United Cyprus Republic exercise full control over both regions the GC and the TC. The Central government comprises members of both comunities at the ratio currently 4:2 , 4 GCs and 2 TC s . I have written in my previous message above that such a diversification in the governance of the island is important to ensure that ONE sided activities and ONE sided policies similarly of those occured in 60s will not happen again and therefore this diversification is very important to encourage PEACE AND propserity .

WHAT is more the United Cyprus Republic being a member of EU will ensure that will act according to european values , laws and policies.

Therefore there is ONLY ONE STATE which is the case in any Federal model INTERNATIONALLY LIke the ANAN PLAN .
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