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Annan division plan VS Piratis division plan.

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Annan division plan VS Piratis division plan.

Postby Piratis » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:49 am

First of all I would like to say that I wish we could reunite Cyprus. Unfortunately we are not powerful enough to achieve this. The interests of the big and powerful want a divided Cyprus and there is nothing we can do about it.

The Annan plan solves Cyprus problem by officially dividing Cyprus into two separate states. The connection between this two states is so weak that we will be more united with any other part of the EU than the north part of our country.

Second: The last years they tried to convince us that Turkish Cypriots are our brothers. If they were even our friends, they would be able to see the injustice that continues to happen on this island, and would work with us for a fair solution that would reunite Cyprus. The conclusion is that they are our enemies and they will remain that way.

The only real alternative we have to a division based on Annan plan, is a division that will be less harmful for our community and will result into a more stable and democratic state.

The Piratis division plan:

We should accept that part of north will be an independent state. This means that all settlers will remain, and Turkey can have as many troops as they want. In return we will get some more land back than what the Annan division plan gives to us.

Score Annan 1 – Piratis 1

Refugees and properties:

According to recent polls only a small number of refugees are willing to return under Turkish administration. This means that by getting some more land back the same number of refugees will be able to return to their homes. So this kind of division is not worst than Annan plan in terms of number of refugees that will return.

Score: Annan 2 – Piratis 2

Refugees that will not return (from both sites) will be compensated like it happened in the Titina Loizidou case. We will compensate Turkish Cypriots and they will compensate us. According to Annan plan Greek Cypriots would have to compensate everybody. Now since north will be an independent state they will have to compensate Greek Cypriot refugees and not us.

Score: Annan 2 – Piratis 3



Democracy/Functionality:

We will create a new 100% democratic constitution, with no exceptions. No categories of people with super rights and no veto by minorities. The state will function even better than it does today.

Score Annan 2 – Piratis 4


EU:

We will be already in the EU. The north can apply and make its own negotiations from zero if they want to enter. When they meet all the criteria needed then they can enter (if no EU member veto).

Economy:

Since Cyprus problem will be solved with a solution that will give us a democratic and functioning state and a Cyprus with strong economy will be in the EU we will be able to attract a lot more investments. The north will be able to compete with us now in areas like tourism, but much less since no EU or Greek Cypriot money will go into building their infrastructure.
We will not have to pay all those billions. Whatever we will pay will be for our own benefit and not for the benefit of some others.

Score: Annan 2 – Piratis 5


Conclusion:

For all these years we were looking for a fair solution. The last months "fair" went out of the window, and we were just asking for something functional. It seems that Denctash is not cooperating and the result will not even be functional. Do you want a division plan that is so bad?

For Turkey Cyprus has strategic importance. "Piratis plan" gives them what they want. Their troops can remain. Cyprus problem is solved, so they will not find it in front of them again. It is a very good solution for them.

Good solutions for us do not exist. A division plan like the one I proposed and I believe Turkey and Denctash will accept is bad, but much better for Greek Cypriots than the Annan division plan.
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Postby metecyp » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:02 am

I can't believe that you wasted so much time to design a ridicilous division plan. Your ideas are majorly flawed and here's why.

The connection between this two states is so weak that we will be more united with any other part of the EU than the north part of our country.

Tell me the exact part of Annan plan that creates two very independent states, so independent that, you would have more rights in any European country than in the north. You're just claiming things without supporting them. When Cyprus gets into EU, will you be able to define, say, the foreign policy of France? Of course not, but in a united Cyprus you'll be able to determine the foreign policy of Cyprus. This is just an example to show you how illogical your claim is.
If they were even our friends, they would be able to see the injustice that continues to happen on this island, and would work with us for a fair solution that would reunite Cyprus

I'm not sure if you want to get into injustice on the island. When you talk about justice, you tend to remember your side, and completely forget the other side. What about 40 years of exclusion from the government? Is that fair? Or what about the miserable condition of T/Cs between 1963-1974? My mum used to tell me stories about being checked at three checkpoints when she travelled from Famagusta to Nicosia. I'm not trying to blame anyone, just giving some examples where injustice worked the other way around.

T/Cs will always seem enemies in your eyes unless you accept that T/Cs are part of this island, and they are not guests as you wish them to be. First acknowledge the injustice done to T/Cs and then expect T/Cs to do something about the injustice done to your side.
We will create a new 100% democratic constitution, with no exceptions. No categories of people with super rights and no veto by minorities. The state will function even better than it does today.

I guess you mean continuation of the current situation? Because Republic of Cyprus has been with no exceptions for 40 years now, except the ones that just remained on the paper.
Since Cyprus problem will be solved with a solution that will give us a democratic and functioning state and a Cyprus with strong economy will be in the EU we will be able to attract a lot more investments.

No matter how democratic and functioning a state can be in one part of the island, no state can achieve the productivity and wealth of a state spread all over the island. This is a simple economics rule, more resources, more revenue.
Whatever we will pay will be for our own benefit and not for the benefit of some others.

This is exactly problem, "the others" notion. As long as there's "us vs. them" there won't be real peace and democracy on the island. You're in a cycle, you first create "us vs. them" and then you blame "them" for having extra privileges, and not having a democratic state. Why don't you start by accepting the other side as the people of the island?
The last months "fair" went out of the window, and we were just asking for something functional.

Fair did not go out of the window. Fairness is a relative term, what is fair for you might not be fair for me. When went out of the window is the "fairness for one side in expense of total unfairness to the other side". Now we have a situation where fairness is distributed to both sides so that no one side is subjected to total unfairness.

I'm shocked to see how many G/Cs are actually saying nowadays that they prefer division to Annan plan. I guess Denktash has been successful in pursuing you for division.
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Postby Piratis » Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:12 am

I guess you are a Turkish Cypriot.
What exactly is your problem? Doesn't "Piratis Plan" give you exactly what you were asking for all these years?

Tell me the exact part of Annan plan that creates two very independent states, so independent that, you would have more rights in any European country than in the north. You're just claiming things without supporting them. When Cyprus gets into EU, will you be able to define, say, the foreign policy of France? Of course not, but in a united Cyprus you'll be able to determine the foreign policy of Cyprus. This is just an example to show you how illogical your claim is.


1) Freedom of movement in EU, not in north.
2) Freedom of settlement/work in EU, not in north.

These are the main points, there are more.

If I am not able to move wherever I want this means there is some kind of border that will prevent me from doing so. Such kind of borders exist between states and not within them. Even if France is another country, still I will be able to move in and out of France and stay there for as long as I desire without any restrictions.

Also, France will treat me more like its own citizen since they will give me the right to settle and work there. In the north I will be treated like a foreigner.

Therefore Annan plan in reality creates two separate countries and not one.

Oh, yes. The foreign policy.
As a small member of the EU our foreign policy will be in a great degree given by Brussels. In addition, I will not be able "to determine the foreign policy of Cyprus", since Turkey, our proven enemy, will have a veto power to any decision taken. Therefore the Annan plan gives us less power in determining our own foreign policy than the "piratis plan" would give.


No matter how democratic and functioning a state can be in one part of the island, no state can achieve the productivity and wealth of a state spread all over the island. This is a simple economics rule, more resources, more revenue.

According to "piratis plan" we will have more resources since a bit more land will be returned to us. If you are referring to the resources in the TC state then you must be kidding me. Not only we will not get anything from those resources, but also we will have to subsidize the Turkish Cypriot state with our own resources.
Also you seem to underestimate democracy and stability. There are countries with huge natural resources but because they have unstable and corrupt governments the majority of their population lives bellow poverty line. Democracy and stability are ultimate goals with a lot more benefits than some additional resources.


This is exactly problem, "the others" notion. As long as there's "us vs. them" there won't be real peace and democracy on the island. You're in a cycle, you first create "us vs. them" and then you blame "them" for having extra privileges, and not having a democratic state. Why don't you start by accepting the other side as the people of the island?


I am very sorry but we are not the ones who created the "us vs. them"! You choose to be our enemies and as long as you act as enemies we will treat you as such.
If you want to reunite Cyprus (this means no borders!) and you are ready to apply human rights and democracy to the whole island then we will talk again. Until then you remain enemies.
If you want to divide the island, since your site is the most powerful one, there is nothing we can do. But you have to understand that if we accept a division plan, this will not be the Annan division plan. It will be another division plan that will be less harmful for our community, like the one I proposed.

To make it clear: there is no way you will get your own state + EU membership and EU/ Greek Cypriot financial support at the same time. Such thing will never happen, keep dreaming.
You were telling us to see the "realities", we did. Now it is time to see your "realities" and make your choice based on them.
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Postby michalis5354 » Wed Mar 10, 2004 12:29 pm

AND Who are you ? The Chief United Nations Officer?

Or a Turkish politician?
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Re: Annan division plan VS Piratis division plan.

Postby michalis5354 » Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:14 pm

Piratis wrote: A division plan like the one I proposed and I believe Turkey and Denctash will accept is bad, but much better for Greek Cypriots than the Annan division plan.


If you have read the Anan plan and you did not understand it THEN Its not our fault.

The PLAN IS very detailed and comprehensive and can be easily understood by anyone with good will and basic knowledge.
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Postby metecyp » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:07 pm

I guess you are a Turkish Cypriot.
What exactly is your problem? Doesn't "Piratis Plan" give you exactly what you were asking for all these years?

What I was asking all these years was to be treated as an equal parthner in the goverment, and some added assurance that the incidents between 1963-1974 will never happen again. I never asked or desired the island to be divided this way, I'm not happy about the huge military structure on the island. Don't try to blame me for the situation right now, both sides made mistakes. You're confusing between what most ordinary T/C citizens want vs. what Denktash (and Turkey) wants, they are not necessarily the same.

1) Freedom of movement in EU, not in north.
2) Freedom of settlement/work in EU, not in north.

How does Annan plan restrict the freedom of movement in the north? As far as I know, there will be no restrictions in freedom of movemement. Yes, there will be restrictions in freedom of settlement/work in the north, but you cannot compare this to say France. France is a much bigger country and G/Cs never tried to hurt French people, so there's no need to restrict settlement in France. However, we know that the story is different in Cyprus. There's an ethnic minority, who sufferred a lot in the recent history (1963-1974), who were excluded from the goverment. So it's natural that some T/Cs might consider G/Cs would try to hurt them again, I'm not saying it will happen, but it's normal for people to be worried about it (since we haven't lived together for 30 years to prove otherwise). So such added restrictions take into account T/C fears. If you're going to make peace, you'll have to take into account of the other side wishes/desires/fears etc.
I will not be able "to determine the foreign policy of Cyprus", since Turkey, our proven enemy, will have a veto power to any decision taken.

I think many G/Cs exaggerate this veto power issue. First of all, Turkey will NOT have a veto power in matters of Cyprus according to Annan Plan. Secondly, T/Cs will have veto power but this is not as bad as you think. As an example, between 1960-1963, the T/C vice-president used his veto-power only once! Did you know that? So Republic of Cyprus did not collapse because T/C vice-president abused his veto power.
According to "piratis plan" we will have more resources since a bit more land will be returned to us. If you are referring to the resources in the TC state then you must be kidding me. Not only we will not get anything from those resources, but also we will have to subsidize the Turkish Cypriot state with our own resources.

You're talking as if there will be two very seperate states and there will be no communication between them, so you will have your own resources, and we will have our resources, and that's it. Don't forget that there will be about 80000 (or more) G/Cs living in the north state, and these people will be able to enter the local elections and so on. So it won't be as distinct seperation as you're trying to portray between the two states. Afterall, according to Annan plan the whole point of existence of two states is to form a federal state.
I am very sorry but we are not the ones who created the "us vs. them"! You choose to be our enemies and as long as you act as enemies we will treat you as such.

Do you think before you write? How did we choose to be your enemy? Why would we choose to be your enemy, are we crazy? What were we supposed to do when we were excluded from the government, when when Greek junta was in Cyprus for Enosis? You would have called us "friends" if we just sat and watched Cyprus to be part of Greece? I'm not saying we're angels, but you have to understand that both sides did mistakes. And you said "you act as enemies", how's so? We're the ones who demonstrated for peace last year, not your side. We're the ones that forced the authorities in the north to open up the borders. What did you do to be considered as "friend"? You're enjoying the full benefits of Republic of Cyprus, T/Cs are still excluded, T/Cs still live under international embargos and I still don't call you an enemy.
You were telling us to see the "realities", we did. Now it is time to see your "realities" and make your choice based on them.

Again, I think you're equating T/Cs to Denktash, you would be surprised to see how many T/Cs are against his policies, but I guess you wouldn't know.
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Postby michalis5354 » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:11 pm

I disagree that the Anan plan divides Cyprus in to two states , on the contrary the Anan Plan unites both sides in to one State consisting of two regions with their OWN Administrative laws. If that was the case then EU would Never had approved the plan on the fisrt place.

Some similar restrictions that appear on the Anan plan can be similarly found in many EU countries like United Kingdom , Belgium and many more. What is more It is the Greekcypriot side who accepted the Federal System as an ideal model to reach a settlement , therefore all the provisions that the Anan Plan proposes is nothing more than the provisions of ANY FEDERAL MODEL.

Of course the Anan plan proposes freedom of movement to either side. And opportunities of business cooperations in either sides as well. So wrongly has been said above that these rights are violated.

THe DIVERSITY OF OPINIONS that the Anan plan proposes on the CONTRARY make the Governance of the whole country more effective and more objective to represent all the people in Cyprus GCs , TCs etc. AND ESPECIALLY discourages Fanatism and stupid activities similarly of those occured in the 60s. On the contrary diversity encourage PEACE AND PROSPERITY of the whole island

IT IS VERY WRONG TO BLAME THE TURKISHCYPRIOTS for the division of the island . HAVING FANATISM AND STUPIDITY NOT BEING in politics and in society in general in the period of 60s then probably Cyprus would not be divided today.

There are may be few turkishcypriots Fanatics. Aren t there equal number of Greekcypriot fanatics .
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Postby markou96 » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:37 am

Metacyp you sound like an educated individual who happens to care deeply about our land, Cyprus. But let us not forget an important issue. It is not the Turkish Cypriots, about 150-200 thou., who were evicted from their houses.

Another thing. Don't misunderstand a dictatorship and its policies -Junta- with the policies of the legitimate ELECTED government -Makarios-. In fact, Junta instigated the coup in an attempt to overthrow the president and only after it secretly received assurances from the Turkish government for non-involment.

Also, Metacyp, what makes you believe that Turkey is your friend and ally, and that Denktash is working for his people? Unless I'm mistaken, the occupied areas are very poor, underdeveloped and generally seem to have been left back in the middle ages.

The problem, I believe, is that the Turkish Cypriots are forgetting the fact that everything took place because some superpowers, namely the Great Britain, decided to seed a sense of national identity to the Cypriots, especially the Turkish Cypriots, before leaving the island after the liberation fight of EOKA. Before that, the T/C weren't quite screaming for a state of their own and they were contend with simply living on this land.

And before you say anything let me remind you that you are a minority on this land and all this is just unheard of. The injustice done to us is unbelievable. Never before I heard of the outragous claims your leader is making, and before you say that he is not a representative of your people make sure that he is not sitting on the negogiating table.

I understand you love this land the same way that I do...maybe even more, but demanding an autonomous state or even an autonomous community goes against all notions of fairness and justice. You comprise merely a 15% of the total population for crying out loud!!

Now, the Anan plan will cause more trouble for us (G/C + T/C) than ever before. It promotes seperatism and ethnisism in an already over sensitive country. By calling for two seperate ethnic entities as seperate states/communities it is simply telling us that we are not all Cypriots but that we are Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots.

What are you so afraid of? We are certainly not the people of the 60's and I'm pretty sure that our government is strong enough now, as opposed back then, to protect its interests.
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Postby markou96 » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:38 am

One more thing...Piratis plan is ridiculous
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Postby Piratis » Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:16 am

Metecyp,

Your negotiator now is Denctash and we have to deal with him and his actions. It would have been very nice if we could just pick a Turkish Cypriot that we liked to negotiate with him. Unfortunately we do not have this power. If the majority of Turkish Cypriots truly disagree with Denctash is your responsibility to change him and not ours.

What happened in the past is past. Yes we made some mistakes, but most of the things you accuse us are not our official policies. The generals that created the Greek juda went to jail and democracy returned to Greece. Makarios and democracy returned to Cyprus also. Nobody from our side celebrates the day that the coup took place. We recognized our mistakes.
However, the invasion was an official Turkish decision and the Turkish army never left Cyprus. You have no regrets about it. Not only that, you keep calling the invasion as "intervention" or "peace operation" and you celebrate it every year!
Today and for some decades already Cyprus is a democratic peaceful country, unlike Turkey and your leadership that continue to act as enemies. Therefore I repeat: As long as you act as enemies we will treat you as such.

Michalis,

I understood the plan very well. You seem, like many others to be confused.
Just by calling something united it doesn’t mean that in reality it is. We also have United Nations and we all know how united they are, especially during the cold war.
This plan creates a Divided Cyprus with the name United Cyprus.

Markou96,

I agree with most of the things that you said.

The "piratis plan" is not something ideal. Far from that. Nevertheless, what other alternatives we have? Annan plan?
If you believe that an ideal solution can be found, or even that the Turks will allow the Annan plan to become something more fair and functional then you are dreaming.

Yes, we can reject the Annan plan (according to the polls it can be considered as rejected already), but then what? The current status can continue for some years more but not forever. If the balance of power remains unchanged, we should not hope for something better than the Annan plan to be offered to us.
So yes, the "piratis plan" is ridiculous. But it is better than the even more ridiculous plan by Annan.
We have to be prepared for a division that will secure our benefits better, otherwise we will end up with a division that serves everybody else on our expense.
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