Cyprus-Forum.com

[Agios Amvrosios]

BigDutch don't argue with them about democracy and one man being entitled to one vote. That is irrelevant to them. They believe that one TC= 24 GC and there is no point discussing anything further with them.

Democracy is what ever they want it to be forget the rest of the world this is Cyprus we are talking about.

If you insist on one man=one vote you'll be branded a hellenic extremist getting in the way of the glorious chosen super people.

[BigDutch]

There are many democracies in the world and "one man one vote" is by no means the only form of democracy.

You are completely wrong. Democracy is one man one vote.

Of course once each man has had the vote then there can be differences everywhere.

Do you think that in the UK that the House of Commons is 100% accurate versus the number of people in each constituency represented by the MP?
I seriously doubt it, however the majority of the constituents get the MP elected for the area, then the majority of the MP's get the laws passed that they agree with, and not passed that they don't agree with.

Why cannot this happen in Cyprus ?

[Piratis]

In the US there is no discrimination of people based on race, but different states. Nobody can stop a California resident to become a Florida resident and vote in Florida. Therefore the whole USA belongs to the US citizens and they are free to choose their state. Do you know any US state that has an upper limit for residents belonging to a specific race?


Also, the states are equal only in the senate. They are not equal in parliament, and they are not equal when the president is elected.

Even in senate, no single state has the power of blocking a decision.

If we are going to give political equality not to regions (like it is in the US), but to groups of people, then I don't see why this political equality should not be given to Armenians, Maronites and Latins. After all, California is 60 times bigger that the smaller US states, and still they both have 2 senators.

What TCs want is to have an effective blocking power on everything, something that no US racial group, or even state has.

The double standards they use in order to achieve their aim are countless. By using a bunch of excuses they try to explain why they should have all these super rights that no other "numerically less" community has, and at the same time exclude from the same rights other "numerically less" groups in Cyprus. They should be given the "double standards" award.

[metecyp]

You are completely wrong. Democracy is one man one vote.

So, the US is not democracy then. Is that what you're saying?

Why cannot this happen in Cyprus ?

This is the direction we want to move towards but do you sincerely believe that this could happen today? Do you expect TCs to feel secure in a GC majority and that GC majority will take TC desires into account when they didn't care about TC representation in the RoC for 40 years now? Let's be realistic here. Cyrpus is not Britian, there's no Cypriot nation (even though there's a common Cypriot culture). There are 2 distinct communities and as long as there's no one single Cypriot nation, and more importantly as long as there's no trust between communities, we cannot have what Britian or the US has.

If we are going to give political equality not to regions (like it is in the US), but to groups of people, then I don't see why this political equality should not be given to Armenians, Maronites and Latins

First, I have no problem with Armenians, Maronites, and Latins having more representation than their actual population. Second, according to the RoC constitution, Armenians, Maronites and Latins are considered to be part of GC community and their rights fall under GC rights.

What TCs want is to have an effective blocking power on everything, something that no US racial group, or even state has.

No, what we want is a powerful checks&balances system that one man one vote cannot provide. For example in a future solution, I don't want to celebrate 1 April 1955 (the establishment date of EOKA) or I don't want to live in "Grivas street". I don't trust the GC majority will change their perception of EOKA for the sake of TCs. Instead I want guarantees to ensure that the majority cannot force their will to my community like they did between 1963-1974.

[erolz]

BigDutch don't argue with them about democracy and one man being entitled to one vote. That is irrelevant to them. They believe that one TC= 24 GC and there is no point discussing anything further with them.

Where does the ratio of 1TC to 24 GC come from? Is there any basis in reality for this figure?

Democracy is what ever they want it to be forget the rest of the world this is Cyprus we are talking about.

You seek to define and limit the meaning of democracy in such a way that ensures the long standing GC desire to have effective political control of all of Cyprus and all it's people in the hands of the GC community alone. I define it in a way that is compatible with GC and TC sharing control of their shared homeland. In my view neither approach is any more or less 'validated' by examples around the world - where both appraoches exit.

The concept of democracy is more accurately desribed in my opinion as one entity one vote. The entitity can be a person, a community or a state. This is how democracy works throughout the world. In unions of states the concept is of one state one vote (as in the UN and in the EU and USA) and not one person one vote. It seems no contadiction then to consider a federal solution in Cyprus - a union between two component states or communites to include this concept of one community/component state one vote. To me the inistance that in a union between communites/component state in Cyprus the principal should not be one community one vote but should be one person one vote is just blatant manipulation of the meaning and intent of a 'democratic system' and one that is incompatible with many other examples of democratic insitutions around the world.

[erolz]

You are completely wrong. Democracy is one man one vote.

Is the EU democratic? Is the UN democratic? Is either based on one person one (equal) vote or is it based on one state one vote? Or do you want to argue that democracy means one thing within a state and a different thing outside of states?

[garbitsch]

I suggest the guys of democracy to quote from the Belgian model!

[garbitsch]

And I am quite sure that a Greek Cypriot representing the Turkish state in the Senate, will vote for the benefit of the Turkish Cypriots!

[turkcyp]

deleted by the author...

[BigDutch]

So, the US is not democracy then. Is that what you're saying?

Perhaps i should have rephrased that as "one-man one-vote is democracy"

Is the EU democratic? Is the UN democratic? Is either based on one person one (equal) vote or is it based on one state one vote?

One state one vote, this is democratic to me.

Or do you want to argue that democracy means one thing within a state and a different thing outside of states?

I don't want to argue about anything. I`d like to tell you my opinion and hear yours - not argue with you regardless of what you say - who knows people might agree on this : horror :

I think that if Cyprus were split as follows then each region would a % of the seats at the table depending on population, for arguments sake the table has 100 seats :

Lefkosia 200k
Lemesos 160k
Larnaka 75k
Pafos 48k
Kyrenia 50k

Each man in lefkosia would cast one-vote for his favourite "MP", as would each man in the other areas, this would mean :

Lefkosia 38% of population and 38% of "power".
Lemesos 30% of population and 30% of "power".
Larnaka 14% of population and 14% of "power".
Pafos 9% of population and 9% of "power".
Kyrenia 9% of population and 9% of "power".

The people voting all have one vote then that is fair no ?

HOWEVER !!!!

What you correctly state is that in the US/UN "model" it would be as follows :

Lefkosia 38% of population and 20% of "power".
Lemesos 30% of population and 20% of "power".
Larnaka 14% of population and 20% of "power".
Pafos 9% of population and 20% of "power".
Kyrenia 9% of population and 20% of "power".

Which method is "more" fair ?