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The solution

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby insan » Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:42 pm

The sound of the silence.... :roll:
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Postby insan » Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:50 pm

insan wrote:
-mikkie2- wrote:
Forget the rest. Otherwise prepare yourself for partition.


And what is the rest?

I have always said that MOST settlers would have to be repatriated, meaning that I am prepared for those that arrived early on will have the right to stay.


What you say is vague. Tell me exactly how mant settlers you wish to be repatriated.

I have always said that GC's should be allowed to vote for the constituent state they live in.


Vague. elaborate please.

As to the rest? What? Troops? I think you will find that I would like troops to leave the island more rapidly than stipulated in the plan? Is this a maximalist demand? I don't think so.


Vague. Elaborate please. what you want is complete demilitarization in shortest time or reduction of military power on both sides of the island to a balanced level?

Should troops remain? In my opinion no. No Greek or Turkish troops in Cypurs. What is the point of Turkey having troops in Cyprus when she is only 40 miles away and can dump thousands of them at very short notice into Cyprus.


As long as two communities need protection, a balanced military power should be maintained for the protection of two communities both against internal dangers and external dangers. It's up to two communities seperate majority will to decide about foreign troops. Greece-Turkey and Cyprus should strengthen their relations in all areas including common defense policies. We know how long did it take turke to come from 40 miles away and we know the cost of any late military operation.

What about guarantees? I would accept that Turkey can guarantee the TC area in Cyprus and it seems Turkey would be prepared to do that. In fact a good compromise for both.


I agree but why not a wider alliance in East Mediterennean between Greece-Turkey and Cyprus?

Oh, and if we do get partiton, then the price Turkey pays is that she will be banished to the fringes of Europe. The price will be paid by both sides. Don't think that you will get partition for free.


No one will get partition for free. everyone will pay their own share, don't worry about it.



mikkie, kifeas and all others who wish to answer my questions above; can you please share your views about the issues I questioned in above quoted part?
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Postby insan » Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:04 pm

I'm still looking forward to hear the opinions of all forum members but particularly mikkie and kifeas about the above issues.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:20 pm

Insan,

From our previous discussions with Alex, we came to the consensous that 45000 settlers to stay would be acceptable. That is 45000 in total.

Any person living permanently in a CS should have full political rights in that state. I don't think this needs elaboration.

I think that there is such a big distrust of eachothers motherland troops it is best that they leave Cyprus as quickly as possible. Alternative forces could be stationed in Cyprus to oversee the transition and to ensure compliance.

Cyprus should be aligned with NATO and the European Defence force. There should not be an independent security arragement between Greece, Turkey and Cyprus. In parallel, I believe there should still be a professional Cypriot army of some sort which shall be strictly controlled in its operations. Its nature should be such that it encourages greater cooperation between the two communities.

In addition, the fear that violence would start again should be put in the context of the current world order. Any community that is deemed to go against the constitution of a united Cyprus would render the kind of sanctions from the outside world that would make any such actions foolish. We should be creating a nation that is bound by law and as such anyone that disrespects the laws should be punished to the maximum possible.

Regarding guarantees, these should be under review in the longer term.

Finally, I personally think that you underestimate the maturity of Cypriots to act in a responsible manner. We are a wealthy country as a whole and nobody would want to jepordise that. I have said to you that the notion of enosis within our community died a long time ago, and with its death the rest of the bad things that went with it died as well. With a unified Cyprus those notions will be burried, rather than being left to fester.
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Postby insan » Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:37 pm

Insan,

From our previous discussions with Alex, we came to the consensous that 45000 settlers to stay would be acceptable. That is 45000 in total.


This number is what Turkish side agreed on, anyway. Is there any problem with it?

Any person living permanently in a CS should have full political rights in that state. I don't think this needs elaboration.


Needs elaboration. The number of permanent GC residents of TCCS should not exceed %33 of permanent TC residents of TCCS. Do you agree with me?

I think that there is such a big distrust of eachothers motherland troops it is best that they leave Cyprus as quickly as possible. Alternative forces could be stationed in Cyprus to oversee the transition and to ensure compliance.


As I said to decide about this issue depends upon the seperate majority will of two communities. Will you accept seperate majority will of two communities to decide about this issue?

Cyprus should be aligned with NATO and the European Defence force. There should not be an independent security arragement between Greece, Turkey and Cyprus. In parallel, I believe there should still be a professional Cypriot army of some sort which shall be strictly controlled in its operations. Its nature should be such that it encourages greater cooperation between the two communities.


There can be(even there should be) a sub-alliance only involves the particular issues that Turkey-Greece and Cyprus have common interests.

In addition, the fear that violence would start again should be put in the context of the current world order. Any community that is deemed to go against the constitution of a united Cyprus would render the kind of sanctions from the outside world that would make any such actions foolish. We should be creating a nation that is bound by law and as such anyone that disrespects the laws should be punished to the maximum possible.



Theory and practice does not always go hand in hand. We need something practically will make both communities feel safe. And that is a balanced military presence of Turkish troops in Cyprus as long as majority of TCs decide the otherwise.

Regarding guarantees, these should be under review in the longer term.

Finally, I personally think that you underestimate the maturity of Cypriots to act in a responsible manner. We are a wealthy country as a whole and nobody would want to jepordise that. I have said to you that the notion of enosis within our community died a long time ago, and with its death the rest of the bad things that went with it died as well. With a unified Cyprus those notions will be burried, rather than being left to fester.



TCs need a certain time period to experience and convince that they will be respected as a "politically equal" community in all areas of common life in our common homeland. The words are not enough to convince them that they will be treated good by their Greek speaking compatriots.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:13 pm

Insan,

You know very well that the way the Annan plan was structured, the vast majority of settlers would have become citizens of the united Cyprus one way or another. You had 45000 + their offspring/relatives + those born in Cyprus since 1974 + + + which were all hidden in the small print.

There should be NO restrictions as to where people should live. The way to go about it is to limit the voting power of GC's in the TC constituent state to say 33% maximum and vice versa for the GC constituent state. THERE SHOULD BE NO RESTRICTIONS ON FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT. That way, political equality is maintained without restricting freedom of movement. What you are talking about is maintaining an ethnic division under the guise of political equality.

I think that we should be starting from a clean sheet. You build trust by trusting, not by being guarded. Therefore, NO Greek or Turkish troops in Cyprus! I do not see this being a problem. However, an independent force would be accepted for a period of time until all provisions of the new state of affairs are implemented. We are now part of the EU. No such action that were similar to the past would be allowed to go unpunished with severe sanctions by the EU and other international organisations. We are building a state of law and the law must prevail. Its as simple as that.
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Postby insan » Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:01 pm

Insan,

You know very well that the way the Annan plan was structured, the vast majority of settlers would have become citizens of the united Cyprus one way or another. You had 45000 + their offspring/relatives + those born in Cyprus since 1974 + + + which were all hidden in the small print.



Yes. I know that. "TRNC" does not consider Cyprus born people as settlers. Are you against this judgement? The numer of settlers who are "TRNC" citizens, not married with a TC and birth place is not "TRNC" is 45.000.

There should be NO restrictions as to where people should live. The way to go about it is to limit the voting power of GC's in the TC constituent state to say 33% maximum and vice versa for the GC constituent state. THERE SHOULD BE NO RESTRICTIONS ON FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT. That way, political equality is maintained without restricting freedom of movement. What you are talking about is maintaining an ethnic division under the guise of political equality.


So let's assume:

After the solution of Cyprus problem, in 10 years time 150.000 GC refugees and non-refugees return/settled down to TCCS. And 10.000 TC refugees, non-refugees returned/settled down to GCCS. Let's assume after the repatriation of most of the settlers TC population decreased to 150.000.

Now let's look at the Senate:

Number of Senators of GCCS: 29 GC senators + 1 TC senators(weak possibility)

Number of Senators of TCCS: 9 GC senators + 9 TC senators

Where's the seperate majority will of TC community? where's "political equality" of TC community?


I think that we should be starting from a clean sheet. You build trust by trusting, not by being guarded. Therefore, NO Greek or Turkish troops in Cyprus! I do not see this being a problem.


As I stressed previously, words cannot help. It depends upon majority will of two communities. Will you respect majority will of TC community if they want Turkish troops to protect them? Answer me, please.

However, an independent force would be accepted for a period of time until all provisions of the new state of affairs are implemented. We are now part of the EU.


If seperate majority of two communities accept such a security structure there's no problem for me. Will you respect the seperate majority will of eaither communities respectively, regarding with this issue.? Answer me, please.

No such action that were similar to the past would be allowed to go unpunished with severe sanctions by the EU and other international organisations. We are building a state of law and the law must prevail. Its as simple as that.


It's not as simple as that. Greece is an EU member and still continue to violate the most basic human rights of Turkish minority in Greece. Neither the laws of Greece nor the international laws could manage to stop Greece violating the most basic human rights of Turkish minority of Greece.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:40 pm

Insan,

We are going in circles. Complete circles and it is quite pointless to keep arguing.

Number of Senators of TCCS: 9 GC senators + 9 TC senators


I said the maximum number of GC senators to be 33%. You have it as 50%. I said 33% maximum even if GC's that settle in the TC state is more than 33%.

As I stressed previously, words cannot help. It depends upon majority will of two communities. Will you respect majority will of TC community if they want Turkish troops to protect them? Answer me, please.


Protect them from what Insan? Angry mobs? My answer is no troops! You seem to think that we are some 3rd world country that is full of uneducated and uncivilised people. Appart from a timetable for withdrawl of troops, none should remain after that period.

It's not as simple as that. Greece is an EU member and still continue to violate the most basic human rights of Turkish minority in Greece. Neither the laws of Greece nor the international laws could manage to stop Greece violating the most basic human rights of Turkish minority of Greece.


What basic human rights are these Insan?

Yes. I know that. "TRNC" does not consider Cyprus born people as settlers. Are you against this judgement? The numer of settlers who are "TRNC" citizens, not married with a TC and birth place is not "TRNC" is 45.000.


So you are saying that ALL settlers should remain? I want to see a proper censous of the north so that we can come to an agreeable number. Without knowing the true extent of this problem then it is pointless talking numbers.
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Postby insan » Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:57 pm

insan wrote:

Number of Senators of TCCS: 9 GC senators + 9 TC senators


mikkie wrote:

I said the maximum number of GC senators to be 33%. You have it as 50%. I said 33% maximum even if GC's that settle in the TC state is more than 33%.


Ok. 150.000 TCs 55.000 GCs will be permanent residents of TCCS.


Number of senators in GCCS: 35 GC + 1 TC
Number of senators in TCCS: 9 TC + 3 GCs


It's not viable, mikkie. GC community will have %33 joker power in TCCS but TC community will have almost none in GCCS.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:34 pm

mikkie wrote:

Quote:
I said the maximum number of GC senators to be 33%. You have it as 50%. I said 33% maximum even if GC's that settle in the TC state is more than 33%.


Ok. 150.000 TCs 55.000 GCs will be permanent residents of TCCS.


No, not ok. I explicitly said that even if the number of GC's that choose to settle in the north is graeter than 33%, they would only be limited to a maximum of 33% of the senate seats. I want complete freedom of movement. You obvioulsy don't.

Number of senators in GCCS: 35 GC + 1 TC
Number of senators in TCCS: 9 TC + 3 GCs


It's not viable, mikkie. GC community will have %33 joker power in TCCS but TC community will have almost none in GCCS.


The assumption is that seperate majorities will be needed for laws to pass so yes, it is viable.

The above split would make little difference to final decisions. If anything it would foster alliances and make our democratic institutions more dynamic and encourage political parties to encompass GC's and TC's and to campaign on common interests. Its quite clear that you do not wish Cyprus to develop in any meanigful way and you want to perpertuate the division.
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