Cyprus-Forum.com

[Marios1]

Is it just Dectash, or the majority of Turkish Cypriots don’t really want to reunify the island? If this is the case then I really can’t see why they think like that.
Dectash says that they are afraid and they want the Turkish army to protect them. Come on !! Are they kidding us? Why would I, or any other Greek Cypriot risk my freedom and my nice life to go and hurt a Turkish Cypriot?? Now its 2002, not the 60s !!. If we wanted to hurt others just because they are not Greeks then we would have done that already with the Armenians, the Kurds, the British the Russians etc that live in free Cyprus. Not only we do not hurt these people, but on the contrary they feel very comfortable here (some of them feel more comfortable here than they feel in their own countries).

Turkish Cypriots would be the ones that will get the most benefits if Cyprus is reunified and enters the EU. First of all they will get many million dollars of help to bring their economic status at the same level with south Cyprus. Second they will finally live in a country part of the EU that human rights and democracy are respected. (not like what they have now).

If I was a Turkish Cypriot and they were asking me if I preferred to reunify the island, or get the “TRNC” recognized, I would definitely prefer to reunify the island. With the unification I could get all the benefits of the EU. With recognition of the “TRNC” all I would get would be a “mini Turkey” with all their the economic and human rights problems.(because even if "TRNC" is recognized they will never be independent from Turkey)

Turkish Cypriots should wake up and stop sacrificing their lives and the futures of their children just because such thing serves the interests and the megalomania of some politicians and military men in Turkey.

[Vertical]

I agree with what you said, and I believe that the majority of the Turkish Cypriots want a solution to the Cyprus problem and the reunification of the island. Unfortunately T/C are the minority in the north now. The majority are Turks from Turkey, that of course do not want a solution, since that would mean that they will have to leave from Cyprus.
Even if these settlers agree to leave (e.g. if they are offered a good amount of money to go back to Turkey), the Turkish government and army will not allow them.
In a few words, the solution passes through the Turkish government and army. If they want they can solve Cyprus problem "yesterday". If they don’t, no matter what the Turkish Cypriots want, the island will not be reunified.

[ephry]

Hello ellinokypreos!
I am a Turkish Cypriot and hope you dont mind me poking into the subject! I guess what my friends say above are mostly true... Nevertheless Turkish Cypriots are pumped with propaganda from hardliners and Turkey with the greater SUPPORT from hardliners in the south. People coming to our borders saying they are going to erect GREEK (not Cyprus) flag over Beşparmak (pentadaktylos) mountains, people looking down on our existance with a snobbish style, forgetting ever that under so much political pressure from Turkish media and military and a cumbering embargo on our economy we have a very complex society in the North. We have universities, businessman, ships, planes, NGOs... almost 25% of our population is university educated with the highest rate of masters degree probably for any population in the region. When and if Cyprus is united I guess many of G/C youngsters will come to our universities... I guess Turkish Cypriots want a solution much more than Greek Cypriots who look at the problem only through the narrow window of GETTING THEIR LAND BACK! (Almost forgetting 50% of our population is also refugees and left their land behind)
PEACE

[Aris]

Hello ephry!! As we mention in our "about" page everybody is welcomed to our forum and "our aim is to facilitate communication between all people of Cyprus irrespective of nationality, citizenship, race or religion." Therefore your posts are more than welcomed, especially when you reply to questions that only Turkish Cypriots can give an answer like this one.

Both communities made serious mistakes in the past, mainly because some outsiders were using the "divide and rule" strategy against us. The division doesn't serve the interests of Cypriots (both Turkish and Greek). Many injustices have been committed against both communities, but I believe that now its time to end those injustices, admit our mistakes, write the facts in our history books, and move forward united. Entering the EU and applying all the freedoms that every EU country should have on the whole island is the best way to guarantee the security and prosperity of all Cypriots. If we manage to do that, Cyprus will have the best era since the beginning of civilization on this island 8000 years ago.

[ephry]

I am happy to be welcomed here I enjoy talking to civilized and intellectual people whoever they may be. I am more glad that those people are my COMPATRIOTS! I guess you are right about mistakes we made to let other people interfere in our country and make both Cypriot communities suffer. I guess its about time we should stop teaching (maybe involuntary) hatred to other people just because they are different from us!
I watched CNN Türk today airing from (south) Nicosia. I can compare the atmosphere here in the north to the atmosphere in the south. Everybody (even the most eager peace activists) are in a big shock after seeing the maps presented by Annan. The people are furious that they are asked to leave the houses they have spent almost half of their lives in and most of them will become refugees almost a third time! (1963,1974,2002?) Some hardliners are now visiting the areas that will be included in the adjustment trying to harvest on their fury. So, general public is very concerned about land and that issue is only thing they talk about not realizing all the good things that might come out of it.
As for the south side I can say that everyone is concerned about refugees not ALL being able to excersize the right to return and T/C blocking the new government.
The thing is if all refugees return then there will be no bi-zonality and if there was a strict bi-zonality then no refugees would return.
We Cypriots should stop complaining (trying to win everything) and go along with the plan to be united as soon as possible.
WE DESERVE TO LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY IN DIGNITY! ALL CYPRIOTS!

[Marios1]

ephry, we have nothing against Turkish Cypriots and as you said we are compatriots. But I believe that the solution should be a fair but even most importantly a FUNCTIONAL one. So I have some question for you, because I truly want to know what T/Cs think about these things:
1) Democracy means that the majority rules. E.g. in our elections in February if say the 3 candidates get 33.3% each we will not have 3 presidents that will have to agree in order for a decision to be taken. This would create tremendous problems. That's why we have a second round, so we will have a president that will get at least 50% + 1 vote. This is democracy. What's on Anan's plan is not democracy, and its not even functional.
2) Do you think its fair if refugees don't go back to their homes? We will enter the EU (hopefully) and I will be allowed to go to work and live in Sweden, but I will not be allowed to go to live in part of my own island where my ancestors used to live. How is this fair?

In any case, we have already agreed to the bi-communal federation, so I agree with you that it will be impossible for all refugees to return. Therefore personally I would be willing to vote for a solution where not all refugees go back. But the state should be functional, otherwise it will fall apart and we will only get more problems instead of a solution. I wouldn't vote for a solution that is not functional, because I don't want another 63 or 74.

And I didn't understand why you say that you will have refugees for a 3rd time. Those people should be able to return to their original homes, at the time before they became refugees for the first time. So this should be something positive and not negative.

[ephry]

If you look at 1960 agreement the first thing you realize is that Neither G/C nor T/C wanted an independent republic while running after their motherlands' ideals. Look where it brought us today!!!
While G/C complain T/C blocked the government of 1960 T/C complain that their registered rights were tried to be taken away and T/C members of parliament were threatened by G/C militia not to ever come back to the parliament building which was then left within G/C controlled area. The truth is G/C did not want T/C in the government and T/c were also looking for an excuse to pull back and raise nationalistic sentiment. Between 1960-63 nobody in Cyprus gave up their guns, militia or underground operations.
Today the situation is quite different. We are not aspiring to be joint with our mainlands anymore (I hope!) and everybody has suferred enough to run after foolish ideals. We need to learn to have a future of our own.
About your questions:
1- Why main rules of democracy cannot be applied in Cyprus?
Do you think after all these people have been through two communities can trust each other on givin their future into anothers hand? Lets reverse the situation: Would you trust a government of 70% Turks to keep your community's rights justly? Even I don't trust my community to be that justful. People are subjective and before you can say "Opps! Whats going on?!!" your rights go down the drain even when humanist people like me highly exist in my society. We cannot simply say:"All people will be equal with 1 vote each. Lets make a fresh start". We had so much EVIL in our past that still hounds us today making it impossible to lay our destiny into each others' hands (especially T/C being the less numbered community).
In some federated states some federal parts are almost 20 times the population of another part. They never complain about that small part jointly and equally administering the whole federation. I cannot see why G/C insist to form a unitary form while almost 99.9% of T/C dont want to live in a unitary state! Its just like trying to get your best girlfriend marry you while only thing she wants is just SOCIALLY be with you and nothing MORE!
2-I believe all refugies should be able to go back their homes and its not fair some would have the chance to do so and some other wont. BUT IS THIS VIABLE? Is it possible in any arrangement we can make with the combination of things on the table? Moreover what part of people are alive that had a meaningful memory of the land you are talking about? My grandfather was from Crete. He was kicked out of his house and ancestral land by Greeks but what does it mean to me today? I cannot even go and visit because Greece denies me the visa. Whatever has happened to my grandfather or my ancestral land should not prevent me from living happily in my environment today. We have to MOVE ON! T/C are so much afraid that though they miss their land and childhood memories they definitely dont want to go back. What do you think made them so much afraid? the mice in their homes?
3-We have a saying in Turkish:"Zorla güzellik olmaz!" meaning nothing beatiful can come out with applying force(harshness). According to the new plan G/C will be able to settle in North Cyprus (up to 30% of the North population) but why would leave your friends and family and come to north dealing with Turkish speaking authorities,police,municipality, sending your kids to Turkish schools? Why should you push your way to settle right among people who will look at you with prejudice and a blaming look (always keeping every single G/C responsible!! for whatever happend to them)on their face? WE NEED TIME TO HEAL OUR WOUNDS. Maybe there will be days in the future when even the cross-marriages will be considered NORMAL. Until that day we should not push our luck I guess and just wait and patiently work for peace!
By the way, my housmate is from Limasol (left whe he was 2!!!). He said he wants to have a drink with you one in Limasol!!

[Marios1]

If you look at 1960 agreement the first thing you realize is that Neither G/C nor T/C wanted an independent republic while running after their motherlands' ideals. Look where it brought us today!!!

I agree

While G/C complain T/C blocked the government of 1960 T/C complain that their registered rights were tried to be taken away and T/C members of parliament were threatened by G/C militia not to ever come back to the parliament building which was then left within G/C controlled area. The truth is G/C did not want T/C in the government and T/c were also looking for an excuse to pull back and raise nationalistic sentiment. Between 1960-63 nobody in Cyprus gave up their guns, militia or underground operations.
Today the situation is quite different. We are not aspiring to be joint with our mainlands anymore (I hope!) and everybody has suferred enough to run after foolish ideals. We need to learn to have a future of our own.

Personally I was not alive at that time, and although I know that most of what you say is correct, I’ve never heard of G/C militia threatening T/C parliament members not to come to the parliament building. What I know is that T/C P.Ms left the parliament by themselves after those “13 points” were proposed. But if you know this from personal experience or experience of people you really trust their words I have no reason to doubt you
About your 3 points now:
1) I consider the whole Cyprus as “my land” and that’s how every Cypriot should consider it.
I accept that there is a lot of mistrust between the 2 communities, but I don’t agree that creating a non functional state is the way to solve this problem. First of all T/C will not be giving their future into the hands of G/C. Consider these points:
a) You will have your own federal state. This means that in your own part you will administer a lot of things, like education, police etc, and you would be able to make international agreements with other countries on cultural and trade issues.
b) We will be in the EU. Many of the main policies will not be taken by the central government of Cyprus, but will come to us directly from Brussels.
c) Even if we say (hypothetically) that a very bad G/C is elected as president. He will not be able to hurt the T/C even if he wanted to do so. This is because the EU would kick his ass, and also because no G/C would dare to do such thing after what happen in 74.
Still, I agree that we can make this changes gradually, so the 2 communities will be able to regain trust for each other.

2) Many people are still alive, but even their kids would like to return to the land of their ancestors and they have the right to do so. Actually if we enter the EU united, you will be also free to go to Crete to visit the land of your ancestors, or even move permanently there IF YOU WANT. I emphasize the “if you want” because what we want is the RIGHT to go back, because this is a basic human right. Still, I agree with you that many of those people will choose not to go back. Also, I repeat, that although it would be fair to give this right to everybody, I can accept a solution where not everybody will be able to return, since T/C should be the majority in their own federal state, and this wouldn’t be the case if all G/C refugees returned. So personally I accept this, although I consider it unfair.

3) As I said above, not everybody will return, all they want is the RIGHT to return. But you said some things that I do not agree here:
a) Sure most people in the authorities in the T/C area will speak Turkish and vice versa, but the federal state will be arranged in such a way that this problems will be less. For example, even today our id and passport are written in Greek, English AND Turkish. On the Cyprus Pounds there are Greek, English AND Turkish etc. When the Cyprus problem is solved, we should have some Turkish speaking people in our authorities here, and you should have some Greek speaking people in your authorities there.
b) G/C that will live in the T/C federal state will have Greek schools to send their kids and T/C people that will live in G/C area will have Turkish schools to send their kids

About cross-marriages I don’t consider it impossible. Cyprus today is not the closed society of 1960. 10% of the population of the south are non Cypriot citizens according to the latest census (British, Russians, Arabs etc). And that’s not including the 2 million tourists per year.

You and your friend are welcomed in Limassol whenever you want Just let me know when you are coming. If you are seriously interested and you decide to come, send me a private message and I will give you my phone number so we can arrange it

[Vertical]

Ephry, what do you think about the settlers from Turkey? How do those people feel about Cyprus? I’ve heard that some of them would be more than willing to leave from Cyprus if an amount of money was given to them in order to be able to go back to Turkey and get a house there. How is the relationship between T/C and Turkish settlers?

[ephry]

Hello from North again!
How nice to see we can talk about so much hurting subjects with a well grounded manner; considering realities even though they do not meet our aspirations 100%. Thanx for your decency Marios1, Aris and Vertical! (I just wish we had better politicians to display a parallel manner). I guess people should listen to others before passing any judgements on them. If more of you are out there I think the new state will have a solid future.
MARIOS1 :
I can put my signature right under what you have written in your last post. I guess we have to consider Annan plan-New constitution-article 9-4 and 9-5. When I looked at these points I saw a list of villages and communities which are given extra and exclusive rights of excersizing their religious and educational freedom within the other community. This list exists because NOT everyone will be able to open schools or religious sites within the other community depending on their own will.
I guess whatever is in the plan we will be able to enjoy e better future than we can expect now. I might have cars,houses,and all the other material needs right now but what are they for if I am not living in a democratic state with a future?
Let me assure you that this time the government will be functional. After the G/C reluctance to share the ruling power T/C aimed to build a seperate living area for themselves with the help from Turkey. After 1974 T/C realized gradually that Turkey was not interested with their brothers!!! in Cyprus but the most strategic land itself!!! After all we were too naive to think some other people would protect our interests. Right now almost every T/C in the North (especially the youngsters) know that ONLY THEMSELVES can protect their OWN interest. I strongly believe if the new formed state will not work, it will definitely not be because of T/C. We dont want to be used and abused again. Everyone here will stick to the new state with both hands. As we cannot afford to go back to being a country under so much closure and detached from international society. No need to be alarmed about functionality of the new state...
Thank you for your kind offer about drink... Hopefully we will be talking face to face soon after an agreement anyway. I would be more than glad to present a pleasant person like you to my friends and enjoy a drink reciprocally in Famagusta or should I say Mağusa-Ammochostos
VERTICAL:
T/C are aware of their cultural components. They are as much Turkish as they are Cypriots. They can understand Turkey and Turkish people very well. The funny thing is T/C dont share many typical characteristics of Turkish society. We T/C are very easy-going, pragmatical, negotiatable, warm-blooded mediterranean people while people from Turkey are stubborn, proud, one-track-minded, unnegotiatable and fighting people. If you try to discuss a matter with a Turk from mainland you have to take into account that you might end up being physically attacked or being stabbed!!! Cypriots generally dislike this behaviour and almost 28 years living with the settlers here we learned to keep them out of our private lives. In public everybody tends to treat settlers equally (also because Cypriots avoid being rude to anybodys face) but when it comes to families visiting each other for a coffee and chat we tend to select our friends from Cypriots. (This is also natural as Turks have different culture and tates- they prefer to drink their funny Turkish tea to our lovely coffee for one thing!!!)
The other interesting fact is that settlers children born in Cyprus have almost assimilated themselves in order not to be isolated from society just like their parents. Amazingly they run away and come back to Cyprus (not being able to live in Turkey) when they are sent for a holiday to see their relatives living in Turkey! They dont feel they belong there...
If they went to Canada or Australia nobody would discuss their citizenship of those countries after 28 years today. Lets think it this way: As an example we have somebody working for us who came to Cyprus when he was 4. He went to school with rest of other Cypriots. He got married here. Now he has two kids. All of them speak Turkish in Cypriot dialect. They look at Cyprus as their own country. They also want peace and to enter EU. How fair is it to send them back to a country where they will be literally foreigners? And also settlers should not be an issue for G/C to be concerned. My society looks at this matter as an "internal affair".
Stay well!!