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The 100's of villages that were burned down

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby bill cobbett » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:09 pm

samarkeolog wrote:I know this thread is well out of date, but, since I have Richard Patrick's (1976) list of villages abandoned by Turkish Cypriots in 1963-1964 (most of the info taken from figure 3.10 on page 77), I figured it might help here or elsewhere if I posted it. (There are problems with all sources, but, anyway...)

1. Agia Anna (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
2. Agia Marina (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
3. [Agia Varvara-Paphou, March 1966 (Patrick, 1976: 274)]
4. Agioi Eliophotes (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
5. Agios Epiktitos-Vrysi (Patrick, 1976: 98n65)
6. Agios Epiphanios (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
7. Agios Ermolaos (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
8. Agios Georgios (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
9. Agios Georgoudi (Patrick, 1976: 275)
10. Agios Ioannis (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
11. Agios Isidoros (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
12. Agios Sozomenos (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
13. Agios Theodoros-Ammochostou (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
14. Agios Theodoros-Evrykhou (Patrick, 1976: 98n65)
15. Agios Theodoros-Lefkas (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
16. Agios Vasileios (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
17. Akaki (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
18. Akhalia (Patrick, 1976: 273)
19. Alethriko (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10; 98n65)
20. Alevga (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
21. Anaphotia (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
22. Anglisides (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10; 98n65)
23. Anogyra (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
24. Aplanda (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
25. Archimandrita, Pano (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
26. Arediou (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10; 98n65)
27. Argaki (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
28. Arnadi (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10; 98n65)
29. Arodes, Pano (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
30. Asomatos (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
31. Asprogia (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
32. Cherkes (Çerkezköy?) (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
33. Dali (80%) (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
34. Deftera, Kato (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10; 98n65)
35. Deneia (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
36. Dhyo Potami (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10; 98n65)
37. Diorios (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
38. Fasl? (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
39. Fasoula (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
40. Flasou (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
41. Galataria (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
42. Gialia, (5%) into its own enclave (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
43. Kalavasos (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
44. Kalokhorio(-Lefkas) (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10, marked but unnamed; Patrick, 1976: 275)
45. Karavostasi (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
46. Kazaphani (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
47. Khoulou (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
48. Kilanemos (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10; 98n65)
49. Kilani (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
50. Kithasi (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
51. Kivides, Kato (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
52. Klepini (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
53. Kolossi (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
54. Korakou (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
55. Kourtaka (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
56. Koutraphas, Pano (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
57. Kritou Marottou (Patrick, 1976: 98n65)
58. Kritou Terra (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
59. Kseros (Patrick, 1976: 274)
60. Lakatamia, Kato (Patrick, 1976: 98n65)
61. Lapithos (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
62. Lapitihou (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
63. Lefkara, Pano (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
64. Lemba (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10; 98n65)
65. Linou (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
66. Liveras (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
67. Loukrounou (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
68. Mallia (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
69. Mamoundali (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
70. Mansoura (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
71. Maroni (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
72. Mathiatis (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
73. Meneou (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
74. Monarga (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
75. Moniatis (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
76. Morphou (60%) (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10; 98n65)
77. Neokhorio (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
78. Nisou (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
79. Orounda (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
80. Palaekythro (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
81. Peristerona (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
82. Peristeronari (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
83. Perivolia (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
84. Petra (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
85. Petrophani (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
86. Pissouri (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10; 98n65)
87. Pitargou (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
88. Polis retreated into its enclave (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
89. Potamia (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
90. Prastio, but which? (Patrick, 1976: 98n65)
91. Prastio-Evdimou (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
92. Prastio-Kelokedaras (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
93. Prodromi (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
94. Pyrga (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
95. Pyroi (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
96. Sellain t’Api (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
97. Silikou (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
98. Skylloura (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
99. Softades (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
100. Syngrasis (60%) (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
101. Trakhoni (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
102. Trapeza (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
103. Trikomo (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
104. Vasilia (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
105. Vitsada (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
106. Vroisha (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
107. Yeroskipos (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)
108. Yerovasa (Patrick, 1976: 77 – fig. 3.10)

If you exclude Agia Varvara-Paphou (because, although it was abandoned before 1974, it was abandoned after 1963-1964), that's 107 villages/neighbourhoods largely or wholly abandoned. 'Most of the abandoned villages and quarters', Patrick confirmed (on page 78), 'were ransacked and even burned by Greek-Cypriots.' Many that survived until 1974 were destroyed then, like Goshi/Ko??i (according to my information).

Still, I do agree that the propaganda about what happened is really poor - it contradicts itself - and worse, sometimes it doesn't talk about things that are recorded in the neutral sources...


As Kafenes tells us a few months ago...

CAN'T YOU PEOPLE READ ENGLISH??? The question on this thread is about some TC claiming 100's of villages being BURNT DOWN. So stop copy/pasting rubbish to divert the subject. Start another thread if you like, but this one is about the 100's of villages supposedly burnt down.

..and having visited several of the villages in the list above (from my first visit in 1976 and onwards) including (and I type from memory) at least five where I spent some time and where relatives took refuge after being Ethnically Cleansed from the Occupied North, I saw no evidence of systematic burning of "tc" villages.

In particular in 1976 and looking at the list, I saw absolutely no evidence of burnings or ruin from long term abandonments in the villages of Evdhimou and Prastio (late grandmother and two late aunts and families sought refuge there), Meneou (late great aunt and family took refuge there), Mallia (Lim) (aunt and uncle and cousins still in "tc" houses there), Kollossi (late aunt).

A little common sense would tell us that these villages and houses were needed and needed intact to partly house the 200,000 Refugees forced out of the Occupied North at Gun-Point by the Turkish Army.
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Postby samarkeolog » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:45 pm

bill cobbett wrote:
samarkeolog wrote:.... that's 107 villages/neighbourhoods largely or wholly abandoned. 'Most of the abandoned villages and quarters', Patrick confirmed (on page 78), 'were ransacked and even burned by Greek-Cypriots.' Many that survived until 1974 were destroyed then, like Goshi/Kossi (according to my information).

Still, I do agree that the propaganda about what happened is really poor - it contradicts itself - and worse, sometimes it doesn't talk about things that are recorded in the neutral sources...


As Kafenes tells us a few months ago...

CAN'T YOU PEOPLE READ ENGLISH??? The question on this thread is about some TC claiming 100's of villages being BURNT DOWN. So stop copy/pasting rubbish to divert the subject. Start another thread if you like, but this one is about the 100's of villages supposedly burnt down.


Can't you read English? Patrick said most of the abandoned places were burned. He listed 107/108 places. So, I'm saying that fewer than 100 Turkish Cypriot villages and neighbourhoods were burned. So, I'm contradicting the propaganda that talks about "hundreds" of villages.

You should have liked my post. But you didn't, because it named nearly a hundred villages and neighbourhoods that were burned. And you know that even though the propaganda is stupid and unbelievable, the truth is awful. Nearly a hundred Turkish Cypriot villages and neighbourhoods were burned out.

..and having visited several of the villages in the list above (from my first visit in 1976 and onwards) including (and I type from memory) at least five where I spent some time and where relatives took refuge after being Ethnically Cleansed from the Occupied North, I saw no evidence of systematic burning of "tc" villages....

A little common sense would tell us that these villages and houses were needed and needed intact to partly house the 200,000 Refugees forced out of the Occupied North at Gun-Point by the Turkish Army.


True, and yet nationalist hatred is not commonsensical; it is not logical, not rational. I heard - from disinterested internationals in the South (who, if they had any bias, would have been biased in support of the Greek Cypriots) - that Turkish Cypriot homes in Maroni were ploughed into fields rather than left for refugee housing. Certainly, the Turkish Cypriot homes of Agioi Eliophotes/Alifodez, Agios Epiphanios-Soleas/Aybifan, Arediou/Aredyu and Pano Koutraphas/Yukari Kurtbogan were destroyed in 1964 or 1974 or after, when they could have housed Greek Cypriot refugees. So perhaps it is the Greek Cypriot nationalist extremists you need to educate.

Similarly, despite their usefulness, Greek Cypriot homes in Rizokarpaso/Dipkarpaz have been destroyed. So, all nationalist extremists everywhere are stupid. But they're not. They're just callous. They care more about making other, "enemy" communities refugees than about housing their own community's refugees. Yes, they do destroy homes, but they have "logical" reasons to do so. They are abhorrent reasons, but they have a logic, a rationale - nationalist extremism - where getting rid of anyone and anything that isn't the same as yourself is more important than helping the people you claim to be protecting.
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Postby bill cobbett » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:31 pm

samarkeolog wrote:
bill cobbett wrote:
samarkeolog wrote:.... that's 107 villages/neighbourhoods largely or wholly abandoned. 'Most of the abandoned villages and quarters', Patrick confirmed (on page 78), 'were ransacked and even burned by Greek-Cypriots.' Many that survived until 1974 were destroyed then, like Goshi/Kossi (according to my information).

Still, I do agree that the propaganda about what happened is really poor - it contradicts itself - and worse, sometimes it doesn't talk about things that are recorded in the neutral sources...


As Kafenes tells us a few months ago...

CAN'T YOU PEOPLE READ ENGLISH??? The question on this thread is about some TC claiming 100's of villages being BURNT DOWN. So stop copy/pasting rubbish to divert the subject. Start another thread if you like, but this one is about the 100's of villages supposedly burnt down.


Can't you read English? Patrick said most of the abandoned places were burned. He listed 107/108 places. So, I'm saying that fewer than 100 Turkish Cypriot villages and neighbourhoods were burned. So, I'm contradicting the propaganda that talks about "hundreds" of villages.

You should have liked my post. But you didn't, because it named nearly a hundred villages and neighbourhoods that were burned. And you know that even though the propaganda is stupid and unbelievable, the truth is awful. Nearly a hundred Turkish Cypriot villages and neighbourhoods were burned out.

..and having visited several of the villages in the list above (from my first visit in 1976 and onwards) including (and I type from memory) at least five where I spent some time and where relatives took refuge after being Ethnically Cleansed from the Occupied North, I saw no evidence of systematic burning of "tc" villages....

A little common sense would tell us that these villages and houses were needed and needed intact to partly house the 200,000 Refugees forced out of the Occupied North at Gun-Point by the Turkish Army.


True, and yet nationalist hatred is not commonsensical; it is not logical, not rational. I heard - from disinterested internationals in the South (who, if they had any bias, would have been biased in support of the Greek Cypriots) - that Turkish Cypriot homes in Maroni were ploughed into fields rather than left for refugee housing. Certainly, the Turkish Cypriot homes of Agioi Eliophotes/Alifodez, Agios Epiphanios-Soleas/Aybifan, Arediou/Aredyu and Pano Koutraphas/Yukari Kurtbogan were destroyed in 1964 or 1974 or after, when they could have housed Greek Cypriot refugees. So perhaps it is the Greek Cypriot nationalist extremists you need to educate.

Similarly, despite their usefulness, Greek Cypriot homes in Rizokarpaso/Dipkarpaz have been destroyed. So, all nationalist extremists everywhere are stupid. But they're not. They're just callous. They care more about making other, "enemy" communities refugees than about housing their own community's refugees. Yes, they do destroy homes, but they have "logical" reasons to do so. They are abhorrent reasons, but they have a logic, a rationale - nationalist extremism - where getting rid of anyone and anything that isn't the same as yourself is more important than helping the people you claim to be protecting.


I'm terribly confused as to why I should like sam's post or otherwise. A list of 108 villages is posted where sam. says.... "Patrick said most of the abandoned places were burned. He listed 107/108 places.".... My own eye-witness testimony in 1976 refutes Patrick's claim in five of these cases and that I fear must put the whole list in doubt.
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Postby samarkeolog » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:43 pm

bill cobbett wrote:A list of 108 villages is posted where sam. says.... "Patrick said most of the abandoned places were burned. He listed 107/108 places.".... My own eye-witness testimony in 1976 refutes Patrick's claim in five of these cases and that I fear must put the whole list in doubt.


I would agree with you, if he had said those ones had been burned, but he didn't.

Unfortunately, he did not say which of the villages had been burned, at least not in any systematic way. Elsewhere he did, for example, note that Lemba had been burned - and I have had confirmation of this by others. However, we should remember that there might have been fourteen years or more between places' burning and/or destruction and your (and others') later visits. There were between forty-two/three and forty-four/five years between the events and my visits. Some places were rebuilt (like Lemba). Some places were reclaimed by nature. Some places were bulldozed into the ground.
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Postby kafenes » Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:08 pm

These 108 villages are simply the ones which had TC residents as well.
I have visited more then half of these villages in the last couple of years and can assure you they are all in tact and prospering rapidly. Most of them were GC villages with a handful of TC residents.
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Postby samarkeolog » Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:42 am

kafenes wrote:These 108 villages are simply the ones which had TC residents as well.
I have visited more then half of these villages in the last couple of years and can assure you they are all in tact and prospering rapidly. Most of them were GC villages with a handful of TC residents.


Patrick (1976: 12 - fig. 1.5) noted that in 1960, there were 392 Greek Cypriot villages, 117 Turkish Cypriot villages, and 114 mixed villages - and he said that villages were only "mixed" when they had a minority population of more than ten (or more than 10% if the total population were less than 100). So no, those 108 were not simply the ones that had 'a handful of TC residents' as well, because 231 villages had (some or only) TCs in them.

And as for how they look now, Lemba doesn't look like it was burned, but it was. That was why I said before that some places had been rebuilt, or overgrown, or bulldozed: you cannot always see where was damaged or destroyed years before...
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Postby Tim Drayton » Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:04 pm

This is a good question. For example, according to the following article (in Turkish), 130 Turkish Cypriot villages were burnt down in 1963:

http://www.hurhaber.net/makaledetails.isk?ID=437

Can anybody name any of these, please? I would like to go and see this with my own eyes. Halil, can you help?
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Postby Oracle » Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:12 pm

If the TMT were pressuring the TCs to leave for enclaves (proof of which has been posted many times by others) ... would burning down their villages not be part of this coercion?
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Postby kafenes » Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:39 pm

samarkeolog wrote:
kafenes wrote:These 108 villages are simply the ones which had TC residents as well.
I have visited more then half of these villages in the last couple of years and can assure you they are all in tact and prospering rapidly. Most of them were GC villages with a handful of TC residents.


Patrick (1976: 12 - fig. 1.5) noted that in 1960, there were 392 Greek Cypriot villages, 117 Turkish Cypriot villages, and 114 mixed villages - and he said that villages were only "mixed" when they had a minority population of more than ten (or more than 10% if the total population were less than 100). So no, those 108 were not simply the ones that had 'a handful of TC residents' as well, because 231 villages had (some or only) TCs in them.

And as for how they look now, Lemba doesn't look like it was burned, but it was. That was why I said before that some places had been rebuilt, or overgrown, or bulldozed: you cannot always see where was damaged or destroyed years before...


These villages mentioned in the list are villages which had TC residents who moved out. If a few houses in a couple of these villages were bulldozed, then it was for safety purposes. Lemba was never burned down. Pano Arodhes was a mixed village (with less then 10% TCs) and Kato Arodhes was TC with a few GCs. I have just returned from there this morning. Absolutely no TC house was burnt or bulldozed at any time. Until 1974 both communities lived together in harmony, doing business together, attending each others wedding parties etc. So much for Patrick's credibility.
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Postby Tim Drayton » Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:40 pm

I have e-mailed the author of the above article, asking him to name some of these 130 villages. If I get a reply, I will list them here.
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