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A Just Proposal

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

does this proposal satisfy our needs?

it is a good idea toward ending the impasse, i like it, but it hasn't a chance
0
No votes
it is a stupid idea, because Cyprus cannot be united, it is a waste of time
4
24%
I would endorse this solution, and I would vote for it in another referendum
0
No votes
there are other solutions that are better, toward ending our isolation from each other
13
76%
 
Total votes : 17

A Just Proposal

Postby repulsewarrior » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:39 am

...for those who know me
I will try again...



we have an island.

it has a history, a solid line of habitation since the origins of Human population, in Neanderthal time.

This Cultural Heritage, no doubt is important to all Mankind, and as Stewards the island dwellers, Cypriots, have adapted to the Civilizations that have come and gone. Only recently, with the coming of the Modern Age, and the end of the Ottoman Empire have the feelings of Nationalism driven its majority by population to identify themselves exclusively as "Greeks", to become the adversary of "Turks".

Today, this relentless position of adversarial politics has led to the fall of a traitorous Junta, the transformation of Turkey into the region's strongest military power, and this island's dwellers, for the first time in all their history, they are torn from each other, and (worse) the Patrimony.

The loss is great with such an act of ignorance, and without a resolution that will allow for the betterment of relations, the world looses something that has thrived as a living Heritence for so long, all people suffer. What is needed in essence is quite simple. Basic Human Rights must be respected and the land must be protected with its relics having the Liberty which allows for their care..

As a starting point the Constitution of 1960 is still valid, and its principals are of the highest order, Bicommunal, allowing for people, as persons, their representation, while as Individuals, their Rights are defended by a State, where all citizens together stand united, and equal.

For whatever reason, enclaves became a part of this island's geography. Some might say that in them was founded the identity of Turcophones as Turkish Cypriots. No doubt, there is much bitterness, with the suffering that collectively, these people have passed, but it has served to galvanise their desire for freedom, to decide for themselves their own fate, and to join collectively with others in their love for this place, isolated by water all around it, an island after all, in agreement that as the population, they would free themselves from any subjugation as one People.

This much is true today. If anything the Referendum on the Annan Plan has proven, it is that both populations in this impasse choose to remain United, even if it as a Plan was rejected, they all voted, and willingly, for this one eventuality.

I propose that the island remain divided as it is.

And with the inclusion, once again, of enclaves into this geography, it is possible to institute the Bi-Zonal nature of its political identity, which has for so long eluded definition. Greek Cypriots will have as a choice, to return, as communities in the north, without harming the fabric of the Turkish Cypriot population living there. Turkish Cypriots will have enclaves as a part of their Jurisdiction in the south, allowing them to offer the Settlers Homes, rather than houses. Security for all Cypriots will be greatly increased because a reciprocal environment can exist for both as a majority having Jurisdiction over a territory, to demonstrate their inclusiveness in two mutually exclusive National Assemblies, demonstrating their respect of Human Rights, representing themselves democratically each citizen with one vote and equal, recognising the special needs of Minorities amongst them, as a majority a giving People.
(...it's a long sentence, (again); sorry)

Above these two governing bodies remains the Republic of Cyprus. It's Constitution reformed now free of the Communal Chamber, but Bicameral, with an Upper House having and equal number of seats for the two communities, so that their representation will serve as a countervailing power against a bias which may be caused by demographics in favour of a single National interest over another. The Lower House will serve the population as a Chamber of second thought where their greatest power, it's members, rests in the seats at Governmnt Committees they fill, as the elector's independant representative, allowing them to debate any Legislation in a transparent manner, while voting by consensus through a speaker for its passage.

A leader, to gain the Presidency must win with his Party a majority of seats in the Upper House. His or her origin is of no importance, except that their counterpart, the Vice-President must be of the other ethnicity represented.

The voter will have three votes. From each of three slates, the voter will choose one candidate as their representative for their electoral riding.

Thus, the voter will have chosen an Independent (or regional) candidate from amongst themselves as a particular community to represent them in the Lower House.

Voting as well, for their Turkish Cypriot candidate and their Greek Cypriot candidate from the remaining two slates, where for the Upper House, Parties have offered these representatives for their Policy.

This is Bi-Zonal, and Bicommunal.
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Postby kurupetos » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:28 pm

Wow!

Your plan is worse than the Anan plan.

Do you expect GC to accept it?
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Postby repulsewarrior » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:14 pm

And why not?

-it allows for a central government that is without damaging bias that can defend the Individual Rights of all citizens in a manner where it is Sovereign as the State.

- it allows for self representation and the sustainability of a Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot peoples.

- it allows for and recognises the Right of Return to all that were displaced since 1960.

- it allows for the Humane treatment of the Settlers and those who will be displaced.

-it allows for diversity within each of the communal groups, adding to their vitality.

-it allows for the reciprocal demonstration of each population as societies that are inclusive.

-it will guarantee our security, because it will not be possible to conduct aggressive exchanges because the civilian populations are no longer easily isolated.

-free association will be encouraged, and freedom of movement and expression will be unfettered.

-the island will be repopulated, and the governmental bodies will be unable to promote mono clonal policies of exclusion.

- it is easy to understand, unlike the Annan Plan, and it is seen to be fair, as much as being fair. it is clear because it does not leave the most important issues unsolved, open to setllement after its enactment.

I do not expect that "Greeks" or "Turks" that are Cypriot to accept this proposal, but I expect Cypriots who are "Greek" or "Turkish" to find it most appealing.
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Postby Nikitas » Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:01 am

RW the voting system you lay out has confused me. Can you make it a little plainer?

The central government to be effective in your set up must be able to move in any of the two regions to correct deviations from the constution. There is no way in the world the TC side would accept such a powerful central govenment.
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Postby Piratis » Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:47 am

Only recently, with the coming of the Modern Age, and the end of the Ottoman Empire have the feelings of Nationalism driven its majority by population to identify themselves exclusively as "Greeks", to become the adversary of "Turks".


Not true. The majority of Cypriots have always identified themselves as Greeks for many 1000s years. Some of our rulers tried to oppress our identity, but all of them have failed.

I often wrote about the Hellenization of the island that happened about 3500 years ago. Here is a quote from a later period, after Cyprus had already passed under some foreign rulers.

The Cypriot kings continued to enjoy considerable autonomy while paying tribute to Persia, and were even allowed to strike their own coinage. They remained culturally oriented toward Greece, and when the Ionians revolted against the Persians, those of the Cypriot kings who were Greek also rebelled. The revolt was suppressed quickly, apparently without retaliation.

In 411 B.C. another Greek Cypriot, Evagoras, established himself as king of Salamis and worked for a united Cyprus that would be closely tied to the Greek states. By force and by guile, the new king brought other Cypriot kingdoms into line and led forces against Persia. He also allied the Cypriots with Athens, and the Athenians honored him with a statue in the agora. As the Salamisian king gained prominence and power in the eastern Mediterranean (even attacking Persian positions in Anatolia), the Persians tried to rid themselves of this threat, and eventually defeated the Cypriots. Through diplomacy Evagoras managed to retain the throne of Salamis, but the carefully nurtured union of the Cypriot kingdoms was dissolved. Although Cyprus remained divided at the end of his thirty-seven-year reign, Evagoras is revered as a Greek Cypriot of uncommon accomplishment. He brought artists and learned men to his court and fostered Greek studies. He was instrumental in having the ancient Cypriot syllabary replaced by the Greek alphabet. He issued coins of Greek design and in general furthered the integration of Greek and Cypriot culture.

Cypriot freedom from the Persians finally came in 333 B.C. when Alexander the Great decisively defeated Persia at the Battle of Issue. A short time later, the Cypriot kings were granted autonomy in return for helping Alexander at the siege of Tyre.


The Cyprus problem has always been that of foreign powers invading our island and imposing their will on us. The solution is non else than freedom from all foreign troops, a real democracy where each person has one vote without any racist discriminations, and for the TC minority strong minority rights as they are applied to the best of EU countries.

There can be no excuse for TCs to have under their control land that belongs by 82% to Greek Cypriots. Neither is democratic for an 18% minority to have 50% power.
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Postby umit07 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:21 am

I find th proposal quite vague.

1. What sort of legilation will go through each house?

2.Will voting be cast on the principle of which state you live in , or your ethnic background.
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Postby repulsewarrior » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:56 pm

...thank you for the interest

-voting will be cast from where you reside, as in any other democratic State.

-the upper house will originate legislation, the lower house will have the power to propose amendments

- Greece as we know it is a very Modern idea comparitively; enosis as an ideal can be directly linked to this realisation. Hellens in their diaspora had wanted a 'reconstruction' of 'their' country for many centuries before its foundation, and it seems natural that Cypriots would be a part of that dream, being mostly Grecophone. However, it is the movement which Lord Byron made a priority which moved people toward its realisation about 200 years ago.

-a strong central government will be acceptable to all Cypriots if it remains focused on our external affairs and Individual Rights. setting standards based on these precepts will assure that the National Assemblies follow identical guidelines in Cypriots' internal affairs. a Judiciary which is independant will have the credibility it needs to decide the cases which either society cannot conclude themselves. similarly a police force with national powers will serve all citizens with its investigations in matters where all citizens have a concern, or where the police of either Assembly are implicated.

-the principal of one man one vote is respected, although each citizen will have to vote thricely: one Independant representative (for the Lower House), one Turkish Cypriot representative, and one Greek Cypriot representative (for the Upper House). Parties will have little or no chance of winning a majority in the Upper House unless they can provide both Turkish and Greek candidates to fill the seperate slates. Thus their policy must reflect the concerns of all citizens in general, although they may propose specific programs which may be of interest to one or the either (Greek or Turkish).

Obviously, one government is more economic and efficient. It is an ideal which can be realised if all citizens find in it a true form of representation that they find free of any bias. However, we have moved beyond that point (since 1963), and our situation at present goes beyond reforming the Constitution in this manner. Because the Communal Chamber was ignored, it is now necessary to define the Bicommunal nature of our State with the addition of two seperate and mutually exclusive National Assemblies instead.

...your comments please.
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Postby kurupetos » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:53 pm

Instead of complicated solution plans (and therefore constitutions) we need something very clear and uniting without dividing clauses. Personally, I would only accept a plan without any dividing in terms of administrtive government/authorities, e.g. no division in the parliament in terms of GCs and TCs. Also no interference from outside countries (e.g Turkey, Greece, etc.) No military bases (e.g. UK). No restrictions on residence, etc.
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Postby umit07 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:16 pm

Repulsewarrior

You stated:

" the upper house will originate legislation, the lower house will have the power to propose amendments "

As far as I understand it the lower house will not really have any forcing power. They will only act as a body harmonising bills to be validated by the upper house.

Did I understand correctly? Please correct if necessary.
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Re: A Just Proposal

Postby Talisker » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:15 pm

Repulsewarrior - thanks for your comments on the 'GC coherency towards reunification' thread, and for the link to your proposal. Have inserted my comments below, but please be aware that (i) I am not Cypriot, and have limited knowledge of the history of relations between the two communities which lead to the current situation, and (ii) I don't know all the details of the Annan plan, so wouldn't be able to compare with your proposal as others have done.

repulsewarrior wrote:...for those who know me
I will try again...

Your imply this proposal has been posted previously - or is this an adaptation of an earlier version? Either way, it is clear you have given this a lot of thought and I found some parts quite intriguing.

repulsewarrior wrote:we have an island.

it has a history, a solid line of habitation since the origins of Human population, in Neanderthal time.

This Cultural Heritage, no doubt is important to all Mankind, and as Stewards the island dwellers, Cypriots, have adapted to the Civilizations that have come and gone. Only recently, with the coming of the Modern Age, and the end of the Ottoman Empire have the feelings of Nationalism driven its majority by population to identify themselves exclusively as "Greeks", to become the adversary of "Turks".

Today, this relentless position of adversarial politics has led to the fall of a traitorous Junta, the transformation of Turkey into the region's strongest military power, and this island's dwellers, for the first time in all their history, they are torn from each other, and (worse) the Patrimony.

The loss is great with such an act of ignorance, and without a resolution that will allow for the betterment of relations, the world looses something that has thrived as a living Heritence for so long, all people suffer. What is needed in essence is quite simple. Basic Human Rights must be respected and the land must be protected with its relics having the Liberty which allows for their care..

Useful to have your summary of the history of human relations on the island to place your proposal in context, but would have to question some points e.g. hasn't 'Greek' or 'Turkish' identity existed since the Ottoman invasion in 1571, essentially the indigenous population and the invader? You seem to be trying to make the point that since the late 16th century the communities were harmoniously mixed, but my impression is that longstanding separate villages existed which contained either Greek/Christian or Turkish/Muslim inhabitants. Perhaps there were long periods of peace and harmony, but the distinctive cultural and religious differences persisted. I've heard of exceptions, and many instances of 'best friends' being from the 'other' community, but overall the communities appear to be distinct. Correct?

One other point. For Cypriots the current situation is a tragedy. For those of us non-Cypriots with an interest in Cyprus the CyProb is unfortunate, and one we wished could be solved. But the wider world will take, and has taken, only limited notice of the 'little local difficulty' of a small (albeit strategically important) island, despite the obvious injustices and disregard for UN resolutions that have occurred. So don't think that the whole world is losing sleep over the CyProb.........

repulsewarrior wrote:As a starting point the Constitution of 1960 is still valid, and its principals are of the highest order, Bicommunal, allowing for people, as persons, their representation, while as Individuals, their Rights are defended by a State, where all citizens together stand united, and equal.

For whatever reason, enclaves became a part of this island's geography. Some might say that in them was founded the identity of Turcophones as Turkish Cypriots. No doubt, there is much bitterness, with the suffering that collectively, these people have passed, but it has served to galvanise their desire for freedom, to decide for themselves their own fate, and to join collectively with others in their love for this place, isolated by water all around it, an island after all, in agreement that as the population, they would free themselves from any subjugation as one People.

This much is true today. If anything the Referendum on the Annan Plan has proven, it is that both populations in this impasse choose to remain United, even if it as a Plan was rejected, they all voted, and willingly, for this one eventuality.

I propose that the island remain divided as it is.

And with the inclusion, once again, of enclaves into this geography, it is possible to institute the Bi-Zonal nature of its political identity, which has for so long eluded definition. Greek Cypriots will have as a choice, to return, as communities in the north, without harming the fabric of the Turkish Cypriot population living there. Turkish Cypriots will have enclaves as a part of their Jurisdiction in the south, allowing them to offer the Settlers Homes, rather than houses. Security for all Cypriots will be greatly increased because a reciprocal environment can exist for both as a majority having Jurisdiction over a territory, to demonstrate their inclusiveness in two mutually exclusive National Assemblies, demonstrating their respect of Human Rights, representing themselves democratically each citizen with one vote and equal, recognising the special needs of Minorities amongst them, as a majority a giving People.
(...it's a long sentence, (again); sorry)


I looked for maps indicating the demographics within Cyprus in the 1960s and in 1974. This website:
http://www.kypros.org/Occupied_Cyprus/o ... ctives.htm
indicates (i) distinctive Greek and Turkish villages in 1960, with scattering of both throughout the island, and (ii) the extent of movement of Turkish Cypriots to enclaves by 1964 (sources within this website not referenced, so not sure how authoritative they are). Can't find map for 1974. I can't understand your proposal that 'the island remain divided as it is', and yet you advocate the (re)introduction of enclaves, for the minority community within either of the two 'zones' in the bizonal arrangement. Surely there is no chance of the Greek Cypriots agreeing to your proposal, mainly I'd have thought, because there is no negotiation on land redistribution. I also worry about the concept of enclaves - to me they imply isolation and exclusion, although, of course, I recognise the need for security which can be enhanced by such an arrangement. But enclaves resist integration surely?

repulsewarrior wrote:Above these two governing bodies remains the Republic of Cyprus. It's Constitution reformed now free of the Communal Chamber, but Bicameral, with an Upper House having and equal number of seats for the two communities, so that their representation will serve as a countervailing power against a bias which may be caused by demographics in favour of a single National interest over another. The Lower House will serve the population as a Chamber of second thought where their greatest power, it's members, rests in the seats at Governmnt Committees they fill, as the elector's independant representative, allowing them to debate any Legislation in a transparent manner, while voting by consensus through a speaker for its passage.

A leader, to gain the Presidency must win with his Party a majority of seats in the Upper House. His or her origin is of no importance, except that their counterpart, the Vice-President must be of the other ethnicity represented.

The voter will have three votes. From each of three slates, the voter will choose one candidate as their representative for their electoral riding.

Thus, the voter will have chosen an Independent (or regional) candidate from amongst themselves as a particular community to represent them in the Lower House.

Voting as well, for their Turkish Cypriot candidate and their Greek Cypriot candidate from the remaining two slates, where for the Upper House, Parties have offered these representatives for their Policy.

This is Bi-Zonal, and Bicommunal.

I think I get your three vote system, the idea being that each voter has a say in the representatives for the other community as well as their own, in additional to a vote towards the Cyprus national government. Sounds reasonable, but is it workable? Is a similar model used elsewhere?

Thanks again for offering your proposal - good to have your thoughts.
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