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Yes Yes Yes

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby michalis5354 » Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:33 pm

I hope also that all Cypriot vote YES!

A NO Vote will only benefit Turkey and not Cyprus . The time has come to solve the cyprus issue , being unresolved for 30 years now and move forward.
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Postby mehmet » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:29 pm

'Above you wrote a couple of pluses. Sure, some people will return to their properties and some will be compensated'

Ok, so now I can see that you are willing to acknowledge that there are gains in the Annan plan but your arguenment is that there are also losses.

'The rest of the G/C will have very little pluses and a lot of minuses, so the decision is much easier'

You did not suffer to have to move from your home so you have neither compensation or the return to somewhere to look forward to. Maybe you can support the plan because it helps others not yourself. What do you want to gain personally?

'My terms is federation (e.g. like US, not confederation like in Annan plan), democracy, human rights, no foreign armies, independent Cyprus with all Cypriots equal EU citizens. Is it too little for your 18% minority to have a federal state like in the US? You can't accept democracy and human rights and you want derivations? You want Turkish army always in Cyprus? '

When you talk about 18% and democracy I can see what gains the Turkish Cypriots will have in your plan. If we are talking about human rights how are the rights of Turkish Cypriots to live in safety and security to be met, who is going to guarantee those rights? The majority population? I'm not suggesting that every Greek Cypriot would wish to threaten those rights but like I said before the position of an ethnic minority is not a good one within a state when there has been history of threatening the safety and security of that minority. That's why the 'foreign armies' is an issue. If in time Turkish Cypriots can see that they are safe than they too will be advocating no foreign armies? What about the UN? Are they welcome in your plan or not? We know very well how difficult it was for them to keep the peace between 1963-74 and how the position of Turkish Cypriots got worse. I ask again, who is going to be responsible for the security and safety of Turkish Cypriots if they are spread out all over the island like before if sections of the Greek Cypriot community decide they don't like the behaviour of Turkish Cypriots within the island. It doesn't matter if it's only a minority of Greek Cypriots who is hostile, a minority can cause a lot of trouble, look at Northern Ireland, Palestine or Yugoslavia to see what I mean.

If Greek Cypriots can't come to terms with the fear Turkish Cypriots have without effective guarantees for safety and security than result will be two states and no hope for a united island. Turkish Cypriots would sooner abandon homes than live in risk again. Like I say, if Plan works well it can be reviewed.

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Postby Piratis » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:44 pm

OK, so now I can see that you are willing to acknowledge that there are gains in the Annan plan but your argument is that there are also losses.

It depends how you define "gains". Those people lost their properties and for 30 years did not receive any profits from it. Now they are just given back their own properties, and this will not happen immediately either. Also some of them will not get their properties back and they will be given a compensation either they like it or not.
So you can't say that losing your property during the invasion was a good investment that now will give you gains, right?

That said, acknowledging that we are the weak side and we lost a war, you can say that what those people will get back is better than nothing and you can put it in the "plus" side of the scale.


You did not suffer to have to move from your home so you have neither compensation or the return to somewhere to look forward to.


We supported the refugees and we still do for 30 years now. All Greek Cypriots shared the weight. Therefore you are wrong that we didn't lose anything, we lost a lot, but of course not everything like the refugees did.

Maybe you can support the plan because it helps others not yourself.


First of all I do not believe that this plan helps many Greek Cypriots. While the returned properties are a plus, even in the "scale" of refugees there are so many minuses that make this plan a bad one.
Sure there are some exceptions like refugees that lost a lot of property and now they will get it back. Maybe those people will think something in the lines of: "I will get my property back, and if something goes wrong in Cyprus I can just sell everything and go live abroad. I will still be better off than now so why not take the risk?"

What do you want to gain personally?

Who said I want to gain anything?
What I say is that I will lose big time. While the financial loses (we will have to pay for the compensations of both G/C and T/C etc) can be overlooked, the fact that the Annan plan creates a non democratic state, with many injustices and derivations from human rights are very big minuses that can not be overlooked. With such a big loses and very little on the plus side how do you expect us to vote yes?

When you talk about 18% and democracy I can see what gains the Turkish Cypriots will have in your plan.


Democracy means that the majority rules and the minorities are respected. This is what democracy is all about. Still, we accept that you can have your own federal state within which you can have your own police, school system etc. Also on important matters (e.g. change of constitution) both sides should agree. I really can't see how this can be bad for an 18% minority!!!

If we are talking about human rights how are the rights of Turkish Cypriots to live in safety and security to be met, who is going to guarantee those rights? The majority population? I'm not suggesting that every Greek Cypriot would wish to threaten those rights but like I said before the position of an ethnic minority is not a good one within a state when there has been history of threatening the safety and security of that minority. That's why the 'foreign armies' is an issue. If in time Turkish Cypriots can see that they are safe than they too will be advocating no foreign armies? What about the UN? Are they welcome in your plan or not? We know very well how difficult it was for them to keep the peace between 1963-74 and how the position of Turkish Cypriots got worse. I ask again, who is going to be responsible for the security and safety of Turkish Cypriots if they are spread out all over the island like before if sections of the Greek Cypriot community decide they don't like the behavior of Turkish Cypriots within the island. It doesn't matter if it's only a minority of Greek Cypriots who is hostile, a minority can cause a lot of trouble, look at Northern Ireland, Palestine or Yugoslavia to see what I mean.


There is a Turkish army 10 times bigger and 10 times closer to Cyprus than the Greek army. There are many more reasons why we should feel more unsafe than you.
Extremists existed and they still exist everywhere (e.g. gray wolves. we have nothing as extreme here). However, it is now admitted that what creates even more extremist is unstable non-democratic situations where people feel that injustices are done against them. Northern Ireland, Palestine or Yugoslavia are examples of such places.
Democracy and respect to human rights are the only way to limit these extremists. Instead of that you propose that ethnic cleansing and foreign armies are the solution! These are not solutions, they are just the beginning of new troubles.

If Greek Cypriots can't come to terms with the fear Turkish Cypriots have without effective guarantees for safety and security than result will be two states and no hope for a united island.


Your state is and will remain illegal. The hope of a united island will die if we accept the Annan division plan. We want a truly united Cyprus, not just united in the name.
I will say again that what we can give to Turkish Cypriots is very good. Is what no other minority ever had. T/C have a lot to gain from a truly reunited Cyprus. If you don't see that the way you act now serves only the Turkish interest and not your then both G/C and T/C will continue to lose, but T/C will continue to lose the most.
We don't ask you for too much. Just to look at your own interests.
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Postby mehmet » Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:23 pm

OK, so for people to return to properties they have not been able to as a result of a political process some 30 years later is not a cause to suport plan but a cause to say it is not enough.

Why do you think so many Turkish Cypriots came north after 1974 even when Republic of Cyprus made it difficult, why were they not prepared to live under 1960 constitution in Republic of Cyprus. They are refugees too and they were supported by Turkish Cypriot and Turkish people. Perhaps they are not worthy of your support but does it not trouble you why Turkish Cypriots drew conclusions like they did.

'Democracy means that the majority rules and the minorities are respected'

You don't understand. It's because Turkish Cypriots weren't respected by Cyprus government (despite 1960 constitution) that we have today's situation. Do you imagine the sacrifices made by Turkish Cypriots over the last 40 years in terms of lives lost, villages abandoned, economic discrimination (1963-74), economic isolation (1974- till today) is going to lead Turkish Cypriots to conclude that they made a mistake to think they would be better off separate. This is why security is an essential issue. Even with a Turkish army bigger and nearer our community suffered for 11 years (more if you include beginning of EOKA campaign) before army came to rescue us whilst your community was indulging in civil war.

I don't propose ethnic cleansing and foreign armies as solution, I propose taking one step at a time, you want for the Turkish Cypriots to jump in the deep end. That is not the way to show people that they are going to be safe within united Cyprus.

You say extremist, I say nationalist. To me it is the same. To defeat means to argue against such people within our communities and to lead people to a multi ethnic future. To defeat means also to isolate these people not line up behind them when they try to scare our communities to reject possibility of agreement. I am afraid you are doing their work for them, you give respectability to such people. Look at the power of Sharon in Israel and Karadzic in Bosnia, these people lead their communities into isolation and to try and impose their values on others. Turkish Cypriots do not seek power over Greek Cypriots, just over ourselves. Don't remind me again what percentage of the island we occupy, if we want to talk numbers we can talk about Greek settlers who since 1918 arrived in Cyprus from middle east and the numbers of Turkish Cypriots who emigrated (including my parents) since 1950s for a better life that was not possible within the island.

Still there is a mood to forgive and give united Cyprus another chance (in the north). [/b]
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Postby metecyp » Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:40 pm

Mehmet,

Don't try to change Piratis' mind, it's not going to happen. He has a weird sense of human rights and democracy that he uses for his people's benefits whenever he needs it, but when it comes to TC human rights (such as security) and democracy for TCs (TC participation in decision making), he never mentions human rights and democracy. He talks about Turkey invading Cyprus every day, but he never talks about the invasion of RC by GCs. He says he's fond of democracy, but he never questions why TCs are not represented in RC. The whole western world agrees that Annan plan is a fair and functional solution, but Professor Piratis thinks it's anti-democratic and it's against human rights. Don't be surprised if he starts giving lectures to EU and US about human rights and democracy soon. He's one-sided, narrow-minded and stubborn.
Piratis wrote:I will say again that what we can give to Turkish Cypriots is very good. Is what no other minority ever had.

See, even this one sentence summarizes his whole mentality. His mentality is "We own this island, we own RC, we own the ruling power, and we can GIVE some rights to TCs". Let's cheer on! Piratis is going to give us some rights that no minority has in the world. He owns everything in Cyprus, and he's being so generous by giving us some rights that no minority has!!! I'm so happy.

So, Mehmet, don't bother.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:40 pm

Look, what you are saying and what you are trying to do is clear: Ethnic cleansing and division.

Lets not talk about the past, because as I said about 100 times in here Greeks and Greek Cypriots suffered a lot more than Turkish and Turkish Cypriots. Whats the point of going back 100 or 200 years now? To prove to me that we are enemies and therefore we can not live together?
Ok, if we are enemies then we are. But don't expect from your enemies to make your lives easier.

I propose taking one step at a time


Ok, then lets say 1 step today , and set a specific time for the next one. Say 5-10 years.
Of course you will not agree for the above, because what you say is just a trick to make as accept something that will benefit you and harm us. We are not that stupid to fall for that!
Also Turkey and your leadership is clear. They made everything possible so that what we will agree now will never be able to change.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:54 pm

Metecyp,
I see you run out of arguments and you decided to hit me personally. This is no surprise of course.

There is only one sense of democracy and human rights and this is the one I support.
What you want is deviations from human rights and you can't deny it.

See, even this one sentence summarizes his whole mentality. His mentality is "We own this island, we own RC, we own the ruling power, and we can GIVE some rights to TCs". Let's cheer on! Piratis is going to give us some rights that no minority has in the world. He owns everything in Cyprus, and he's being so generous by giving us some rights that no minority has!!! I'm so happy.


Yes, GIVE. Because we had no obligation to accept a federal state for a minority. If it was like that every minority in the world would have their own state. In democracy there are majorities and minorities but obviously you have no clue what democracy is.

Continue with your personal attacks as much as you want. they do not bother me. They just show that you have no valid arguments to support your unfair demands.
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Postby metecyp » Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:24 pm

Piratis wrote:Continue with your personal attacks as much as you want. they do not bother me. They just show that you have no valid arguments to support your unfair demands.

All my arguments are valid, and I repeated them over and over, but you insisted on not listening. I don't like personal arguments either, but I just wanted to urge Mehmet to move on to better things rather than trying to change your opinion which is never going to happen.
There is only one sense of democracy and human rights and this is the one I support.
What you want is deviations from human rights and you can't deny it.

So when UN, EU, UK, and US support the Annan plan, they ignore the one and only sense of democracy and human rights you mentioned? I wish everything could be as simple as you suggested. Yes, we do ask for certain limitations to ensure our basic human right of security.
Yes, GIVE. Because we had no obligation to accept a federal state for a minority. If it was like that every minority in the world would have their own state. In democracy there are majorities and minorities but obviously you have no clue what democracy is

Oh come on, don't try to lecture me on democracy. So I guess Milosovic is a hero for you for trying to carry out the majority's will against the minority demands in Kosovo, and I guess NATO was wrong in intervening in Kosovo since no minority has the right to demand their own state in the first place, and the majority rules, so NATO should have punished Albanians not Serbs.

You had every obligation to accept a federal state. We tried a unitary state, and it didn't work out due to extremists on both sides. Many innocent civilians got hurt on both sides. Now we need some kind of seperation to make sure that history will not repeat itself. There's no other way, we can't jump back to a unitary state. We have to take it step by step, and I'm not the only one saying this, the whole world says the same thing nowadays.

Wake up and accept the realities, or you shall be dreaming for a "better" solution for another 40 years.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:41 pm

So when UN, EU, UK, and US support the Annan plan, they ignore the one and only sense of democracy and human rights you mentioned? I wish everything could be as simple as you suggested. Yes, we do ask for certain limitations to ensure our basic human right of security.


So according to you the US and the UK (that are ruling the UN since the end of the cold war) care to spread democracy around the world? I bet you are the biggest fun of G. Bush!
What they care for is their own interests and not the well being of a bunch of people on some island.

Why talk about Milocevich? Since you are a Turk why you don't talk about Kurds, or the Armenian genocide instead?

You had every obligation to accept a federal state.

We had no obligation, but we accepted it. And thats the last thing we accepted, so don't ask for more. The sooner you realize this the better.

Wake up and accept the realities, or you shall be dreaming for a "better" solution for another 40 years.


Oh, now you are telling me about the "realities" like Denctash.
Why don't you see your own realities? That what you have is an unrecognized state where no democracy exists, that you are again a minority because of the settlers, that your "country" is nothing but a huge military base serving the Turkish interests and not yours.

We are not dreaming anything. We are just European citizens that can not accept to live in a non democratic country where human rights are not respected. How hard is this for you to understand?
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Postby mehmet » Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:48 pm

metacyp,

It's not only Piratis I'm trying to convince but also others who may be reading. I am encouraged by some of what I read of other people's contributions and the discussion is not just between us. All the same I appreciate your concern, but really I'm ok to continue discussion.

'what you are saying and what you are trying to do is clear: Ethnic cleansing and division'

I'm doing no such thing, division and separate living are not going to start with Annan plan. We already have it and I'm interested in a way forward.

'Lets not talk about the past, because as I said about 100 times in here Greeks and Greek Cypriots suffered a lot more than Turkish and Turkish Cypriots. Whats the point of going back 100 or 200 years now? To prove to me that we are enemies and therefore we can not live together?
Ok, if we are enemies then we are. But don't expect from your enemies to make your lives easier'

I'm not interested in claiming to be a more of a victim than you. You are not my enemy, I'm very clear who the enemies are if we are trying to reach towards each other and it's not you. What you think of me or Turkish Cypriots is your business, I engage in dialogue with you because Cypriots need your support (and mine) to reject nationalism.

'then lets say 1 step today , and set a specific time for the next one. Say 5-10 years'

I knew we would find some common ground eventually. I agree Annan plan should be reviewed 5-10 years sounds reasonable (maybe too reasonable). Does this mean you support Annan plan on basis that it will be reviewed?

'Of course you will not agree for the above, because what you say is just a trick to make as accept something that will benefit you and harm us. We are not that stupid to fall for that!'

You are wrong. I repeat. I agree. Do you support plan?
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