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Yes Yes Yes

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Yes Yes Yes

Postby eracles » Sun Apr 04, 2004 9:57 pm

All Cypriots vote Yes. The time has come. Don't be afraid, it's time to move on. F**ked if you do...f**ked if you don't...you can always go back to partition if you prefer. I've changed my mind fully now. I don't have a say of course but I am using my contacts in Cyprus to bring about a YES vote (ahem) :lol: . Download and read the plan. It's not that bad. GC's won't get any more, we just don't have the clout.
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Postby Piratis » Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:26 pm

The plan is bad. Maybe is not that bad for you if you are going to live in the UK and you will just receive compensation for your lost property.
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Postby eracles » Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:09 pm

My parents and brother live in Cyprus, i want whats best for them as well. My parents say yes (my mum reluctantly) - my brother says no at the moment but hasn't really read the plan, just seen a bit on the news. He's going to have a proper read of it andthen make a decision.
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Postby mehmet » Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:21 pm

How is it if this plan is rejected by one or both communities that it is expected that at some point later an agreement is going to be more to the satisfaction of both parties. What changes does anyone believe will happen to the plan that will have the necessary agreement either of the people (if it gets put to a referendum) or the negotiators (if it doesn't).

I would like some idea of what an improved plan will look like and why it might be more likely to be accepted by both communities. Remember there is no guarantee that Turkish Cypriots will give the current plan the necessary approval and if we (all Cypriots) fail this time it wont necessarily lead to people becoming more compromising in the future.

I seriously worry that this is the last chance we'll get to begin (not achieve immediately) reversing the process of division. Like I said before how many bilingual people under 40 are there and these people are in charge of the future. No shared language, no communication, no understanding. That's the future. And when in the schools they cover this period of history is it going to be a lost opportunity or more evidence to our children or the untrustworthiness of the enemy we choose. Like the Palestinians and Israelis some day we are going to have to recognise that we are fated to be neighbours and it is better to be at peace than at war.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Apr 05, 2004 12:17 am

How is it if this plan is rejected by one or both communities that it is expected that at some point later an agreement is going to be more to the satisfaction of both parties.


You keep missing the point. Current situation = bad. Solution based on Annan plan = worst.
Even if nothing better ever comes we would rather have "bad" than "worst".
Also, by accepting "worst" with our signature, even a hope for something better will die. If we don't accept it, there is a small chance that we can get something better (not ideal for sure). So why should we suicide?

We are not dreaming for the ideal. Annan plan is not ideal for T/C either. But for T/C Annan plan is better than what they have now or they can have in the future. When we get something that will be even a bit better than what we have now then we will say yes.
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Postby mehmet » Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:27 am

Who is it worse for? The people who will have to evacuate villages that will become part of the Greek Cypriot of the republic, or is it worse for the Greek Cypriots who will return to those villages? Is it worse for the Greek Cypriots who will return to villages within the Turkish Cypriot part? Or maybe the people who will evacuate those houses too. Is it worse for people who will be compensated? How many Turkish Cypriots do you expect will make a return to their former homes? Is all of this upheaval worse than doing nothing? Is this worse than current sitiation?

What is on offer to those same people if the plan is rejected?

I agree not everyone will be happy. The Turkish soldiers arrival in 1974 was not intended to please everyone although it did cause a chain of events that led to the return of democracy to Greece and the removal of Sampson as leader of Cyprus?

What do you believe are the terms that Turkish Cypriots would be likely to agree to become part of a unified state? What compromises do you think Turkish Cypriots have made and what more do you think it is reasonable to make. I don't want to answer for you although I am aware of previous answers, I just want you to be explicit about this because I suspect your terms have no chance of success. I would be delighted to be wrong about that.
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Postby metecyp » Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:50 am

Here's a solution that would satisfy Piratis.

Annan plan is rejected, Greek side gets into EU. TRNC remains unrecognized, and the economy in the north gets worse and worse. Turkey wants to join EU but EU member Republic of Cyprus vetos it. Economy in the north gets even worse, so bad that TCs start begging for return back to Republic of Cyprus. Turkey also starts begging to RC to lift its veto so it could join EU.

And GCs, happy and proud that they made TCs and Turkey beg for their mercy, finally decide to let TCs in a worse model of Republic of Cyprus where TCs have even less rights than RC. TCs gets standard minority rights and that's it, all refugees return back to their homes, all settlers leave, there's no single Turkish soldier on the island, and GCs control every aspect of life in Cyprus.

This is the plan he's hoping to get.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:24 am

Above you wrote a couple of pluses. Sure, some people will return to their properties and some will be compensated.
But is not only pluses as you know.
What everybody does (T/C and G/C) is to put these pluses on one side of the scale and the minuses on the other. For example the pluses that you mentioned above do not apply at all to me: I will not return to any village and I will not be compensated. Actually I will have to pay for the compensation of refugees, and I will have to pay for the T/C (and the settler!!!) that will be relocated something that should have been done by Turkey and not us.

Maybe some refugees when they put these pluses and minuses they will decide that the pluses are a bit more, take the risk and vote yes.
The rest of the G/C will have very little pluses and a lot of minuses, so the decision is much easier.

What is on offer to those same people if the plan is rejected?

Even if we assume that a better solution can not be found (which is possible since after May 1st we will be in a bit more powerful position), have you heard of Titina Loizidou? If we accept the Annan plan all the other cases like Titina's will be stopped. But if we don't accept the plan, nothing can stop those cases.

Of course those same people while they might not get their properties back, for now at least, they will not have all the other minuses of the Annan plan either.

I suspect your terms have no chance of success


My terms is federation (e.g. like US, not confederation like in Annan plan), democracy, human rights, no foreign armies, independent Cyprus with all Cypriots equal EU citizens.

Is it too little for your 18% minority to have a federal state like in the US? You can't accept democracy and human rights and you want derivations? You want Turkish army always in Cyprus?

If you want the above then your terms have no chance of success either.

What I offer is something very honest and beneficial for both of us.
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Postby mehmet » Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:35 am

Well, I hope Piratis will respond and confirm he wants peace without this scenario. I'm not so convinced that events will follow the course you have described. If Greek Cypriots alone vote to continue current situation we shall see what the perception of their actions might be. I suspect most around the world are sick and tired of the attention Cyprus gets for Cypriots inability to resolve problems. I doubt they will read 188 pages of Annan plan to assess who is responsible for failure. Also there is much concern within Turkey itself about Annan plan (including within ruling party- read for yourself in Turkish Daily News). There is no guarantee that failure this time will ensure that public opinion (in Cyprus or Turkey) will be more favourable to Greek Cypriot concerns if there are talks in the future.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:42 am

This is the plan he's hoping to get.


Wrong.

TRNC remains unrecognized


it will.

the economy in the north gets worse and worse


probably not.

Turkey wants to join EU but EU member Republic of Cyprus vetos it.


If you are talking about the "date" we will not veto. If you are talking about Turkey actually entering the EU then this is just a dream for you. We don't need to put a veto for this. While EU countries want to have good and close relations with Turkey because it is a huge market and for geopolitical reasons they will never accept Turkey as a full member. Keep dreaming.

I don't expect you to get so poor to beg for anything. What will happen though is that once again we will move ahead way faster than you. You will continue to be an unrecognized state, a huge military base, where no democracy exists and everything is controlled by Turkey.
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