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My vision for the Cyprus of the future!

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby metecyp » Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:54 am

mikkie2 wrote:For me, the biggest problem is the restriction on ones basic human right to settle in any part of their country. Putting a cap on the number of GC's that can live in the north is wrong in the same way as restricting TC's to live in the south.

I understand that mikkie2 but you have to also understand that without any limits, it's pointless to even talk about bizonality. Just think about it. Let's say there's no limit on how many GC can settle in the north. You know that most of the land in the north is GC land. With their economic power, GCs will own most of the businesses in the north as well. Now, how can you call the north TCCS when most of its land and its economy are controlled by GCs?

So you should stop saying you want federation then because any federation will involve some GC refugee rights to be violated. Just say you want a unitary state or going back to the RoC and the GC leadership should do the same so we (TCs) can decide what to do.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:17 am

it's pointless to even talk about bizonality


It depends on the whole package. What are you willing to give up from your legal rights that will be equivalent to what we are supposed to give up from our legal rights in order to have bizonality?

BBF can exist if both communities make compromises from their legal rights. If you expect to have BBF just by compromising the legal rights of GCs then better forget about it.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:43 am

So you should stop saying you want federation then because any federation will involve some GC refugee rights to be violated.


But that is WRONG!!!!

There is absolutely no need to violate human rights to get what you want. And its not merely the issue of refugees, it is also the issue for our future generations.

You advocate a federal solution based on ethnicity. This is wrong in my opinion. I have said that the problem is mainly political. Having ethnic divisions is a fascist ideology which we can do without.

You also make the wild assumptions that GC's will be flooding to the north. Well, I agree that restrictions need to be placed in the short term so that we can have a smooth transition.

At the end of the day, if you wish to have a federation based along ethnic lines then you can forget a 'United' Cyprus Republic. It will be anything but that. Ethnic division will sow the seeds for partition in the future.

I am not advocating a unitary state, but a bizonal federal state where each community has political control of their respective zone and where each community has political equality with the other. In my opinion, this is the only way to foster unity of the people. Institutionalising division will lead us to another disaster in the future.
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Postby metecyp » Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:34 am

mikkie2 wrote:You also make the wild assumptions that GC's will be flooding to the north. Well, I agree that restrictions need to be placed in the short term so that we can have a smooth transition.

Mikkie2, you said before how north has 70% of the resources of Cyprus and how it's gold-mine...without restrictions, it's very natural that many GCs will choose to live in Kyrenia area, build hotels in Kyrenia area, start businesses in the north, etc. In no time, the economic power of GCs will be enough to dominate the north. My question is still valid. What's the point of calling the north TCCS if 80% (for example) of the land is owned by GCs, if the economy, imports/exports are controlled by GCs?

On top of this, if, for example, 150.000 GCs choose to live in the north along with, say 150.000 TCs, it's natural for GCs living in the north to ask for political rights as well. So, not only the economy and the land but the TCCS itself will be controlled by GCs...at this point, any federation or bizonality talk will be pointless. I'm not the only one thinking this way. MicAtCyp also thinks that bizonality is impossible without harming anyone's rights.

Nobody is trying to create a fascist seperation based on ethnicity as you're suggesting. I'm trying to find a way to maintain bizonality and keep federation meaningful with minimal harm to anyone's rights. You said it's possible to have a bicommunal bizonal federation without harming anyone's rights but you still haven't told us how.
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Postby metecyp » Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:40 am

Piratis wrote:BBF can exist if both communities make compromises from their legal rights. If you expect to have BBF just by compromising the legal rights of GCs then better forget about it.

I know what you want Piratis. You want us to go back to 14th July 1974. In other words, you want us to accept return of all refugees, return of all Turkish soldiers and return of all settlers. Then, you want us to accept to go back to RoC. All these won't be considered compromises because we were acting illegally anyway and we just corrected our "mistakes". And then you want us to compromise even more from our "legal rights" for a federation...You're like a Native American asking whites to demolish the US and give back all his land back so he can forgive them...
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Postby magikthrill » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:53 am

metecyp,

if you want an anaology with native americans and the US then use it right: The Ottomans (US) took over land of indigenous people (N. Americans) . The Ottomans settled with modern day Turkey and the remaining indigenous peoples got their land back. Likewise the US declared itself a state and N. Americans have their own reservations.

Cyprus however is a different situation so as you can see it cant be compared. The people have decided that the island belongs to both communities.

And when you talk about refugees returning and foreign settlers and foreign troops being removed you say it like its this preposterous thing!

Piratis said compromiss must be made on both sides. You want your political rights? Then you will have to give up some of the stolen land, or the removal of troops or settlers. So far the only official proposals include the TC demands of political rights but stolen land, settlers and troops all remain.

How is that fair to you?
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Postby MicAtCyp » Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:47 am

To tell you the truth Metecyp all the GCs want to get back their properties.This does not mean they want to return.They simply want the ownership back.
The majority of GCs dont care about Federation, bizonality etc. They even do not understand these things.

PS. So all the Tcs left only you, just 1 person to talk against 4-5 Gcs? Shame. Where is your old friend Mehmet?
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Postby MicAtCyp » Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:12 am

Oh, I forgot, there is Brother too!
Anyway like I said the majority of GCs dont want to return actually.They simply want to have the choice. If you tell them look only 1/3 of you can return then they will ALL jump up and say they want to return.

The GCs will object any system that will deprive them the above. If the BBF will deprive them then they will object it.

At least I was honest enough to say clearly that I dont want BBF. Simply because it is impossible to have a BBF without violations of human rights of GCs.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:51 am

Metecyp,

Yes, 70% of the islands resources are in the north and it seems you don't want to share these resources with your fellow GC's. The resources of the island should be for the benefit of EVERYONE not just for one community.

If you don't wish GC's to live amongst you or you want to minimise the numbers then quite frankly it would be better if you returned more land back to us and we can live 'side by side' as two communities rather than being intermingled which you so strongly object to.

I personally do not see a problem if 150K GC's 'migrated' north if the political set up allows the TC's to dominate politics in the north with a minority participation of GC's and likewise for TC's who 'migrate' south.

I want you to be clear on this. Bizonal to you means a bi-ethnic division.

To me bizonal means just that, two zones, where each community controls one zone. So the BBF model is down to interpretation. A bi-ethnic division for me is a fascist sentiment, it smacks of apartheid and its racist! These three things have caused war and destruction in the past on a massive scale and it will eventually do the same in Cyprus, if ethnic division is institutionalised.

MicAtCyp has pretty much given you what the GC's feelings are on this. Their right to their property is not something they will give up easily on, and don't expect them to give up their rights to it without significant compromises from your side.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:01 pm

I know what you want Piratis. You want us to go back to 14th July 1974. In other words, you want us to accept return of all refugees, return of all Turkish soldiers and return of all settlers. Then, you want us to accept to go back to RoC. All these won't be considered compromises because we were acting illegally anyway and we just corrected our "mistakes". And then you want us to compromise even more from our "legal rights" for a federation...You're like a Native American asking whites to demolish the US and give back all his land back so he can forgive them...


You think you can do to us what the whites did to the native americans ah? And you expect us to agree for this? Sorry, but it will not happen.

To have peace the only way is to give back to us what you took by force.
After that, we can make changes with mutual compromises from our legal rights.

You think that you can have something better and we should have something worst? This will not happen. It is either the same for both, better for both, or worst for both. If you think you can come out winners (something better for you and worst for us than 1960 agreements) just forget about it. Any such gains will be temporary.
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