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Roadmap to turn back to 1960 constitutional order

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby Kifeas » Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:25 pm

Insan wrote:When Kemalist TC, Denktash was negotiating with son of John "the ripper" of Cyprus, Clerides; he proposed %20 quota in all government posts for TCs. Many years after the inter-communal talks(1968-73), Clerides acknowledged that Turkish side had made confessions on many issues and two sides had come very close to an agreement. Currently, he told to To Vima newspaper that not informing the GC community about the inter-communal talks was the biggest fault of his life.

Clerides didn't inform the GC community because he was the man of Makarios at that times. Moreover, as a right winger; most probably he also had relationships with the Enosists. Wasn't Clerides the founder of DESI that gathered the political front of EOKA-B under the wings of DESI. Who forced Makarios to declare amnesty for all EOKA-B members? Until early 1978, EOKA-B still was active and keep threatening Makarios. Even EOKA-B undertook the assassination of a Turkish diplomat in 1976.


Insan,
Firstly I would like to know were the John “the riper” for Cleride's father came from, because I didn’t hear about it before. :lol:

I am aware of all those events and facts that you mention as well as Clerides interview in “To Vima.”

I didn’t understand what is your question though.
:?

Anyhow, my previous comments were strictly specific and exclusive to garbitch, based on his previous comments. I didn’t mean to offend anybody.
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Postby insan » Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:46 pm

Kifeas wrote:
Insan wrote:When Kemalist TC, Denktash was negotiating with son of John "the ripper" of Cyprus, Clerides; he proposed %20 quota in all government posts for TCs. Many years after the inter-communal talks(1968-73), Clerides acknowledged that Turkish side had made confessions on many issues and two sides had come very close to an agreement. Currently, he told to To Vima newspaper that not informing the GC community about the inter-communal talks was the biggest fault of his life.

Clerides didn't inform the GC community because he was the man of Makarios at that times. Moreover, as a right winger; most probably he also had relationships with the Enosists. Wasn't Clerides the founder of DESI that gathered the political front of EOKA-B under the wings of DESI. Who forced Makarios to declare amnesty for all EOKA-B members? Until early 1978, EOKA-B still was active and keep threatening Makarios. Even EOKA-B undertook the assassination of a Turkish diplomat in 1976.


Insan,
Firstly I would like to know were the John “the riper” for Cleride's father came from, because I didn’t hear about it before. :lol:

I am aware of all those events and facts that you mention as well as Clerides interview in “To Vima.”

I didn’t understand what is your question though.
:?

Anyhow, my previous comments were strictly specific and exclusive to garbitch, based on his previous comments. I didn’t mean to offend anybody.



I had heard that the Clerides family has always been among the wealthiest families of all times in Cyprus. That's why I called him John "the ripper". Not riper. I haven't got much sympathy to the super billionaires of Cyprus. For me they are the rippers of Cyprus and Cypriots. :lol:
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Postby Saint Jimmy » Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:08 pm

insan wrote:I had heard that the Clerides family has always been among the wealthiest families of all times in Cyprus. That's why I called him John "the ripper".

I was under the impression that Clerides (Glafcos) didn't come from a wealthy family, but, come to think about it, I must have been under the wrong impression (not many GCs are affluent enough to own a boat).
Unless he is self-made (unlikely?).
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Postby garbitsch » Sun May 01, 2005 1:40 pm

So, even though you are probably less than 18% nowadays, some estimated you to be even less than 15%, you wouldn’t accept any participation into the civil service that is less than 30%. In other words you demand not just to have equal employment opportunities as individuals, but in fact you expect twice as high opportunities compare to the Greek Cypriots.

Well, at least you do not claim all (100%) of the civil service positions, as your father, Kemal bey, taught you to always demand, based on his famous motto, "one Turk equals the whole world."

However, in Greek we have another motto. "Opios thelei ta polla, channei kai ta liga," meaning, "anyone demanding too much, in the end looses even the very little!"


I would love to remind you that the idea to reduce the percentage cause all of those fuss in Cyprus (T.Cs rejecting it and leaving the republic). In your constitution it is 30%. I say do not change it. You get pissed off. This gives a simple idea about you and your thoughts. There is nothing called equal opportunity, because I believe there will always be an apartheid against T.Cs unless they have positive priviledge. As you are so pissed off again, then you are against any kind of priviledge towards T.Cs. I am in doubts about your sympathy. Besides, I am not that kind of person that you had portrayed in your mind and in your posts. 30% is what we already have in your constitution. We are not demanding any NEW thing you pathetic.
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Postby insan » Sun May 01, 2005 2:15 pm

garbitsch wrote:
So, even though you are probably less than 18% nowadays, some estimated you to be even less than 15%, you wouldn’t accept any participation into the civil service that is less than 30%. In other words you demand not just to have equal employment opportunities as individuals, but in fact you expect twice as high opportunities compare to the Greek Cypriots.

Well, at least you do not claim all (100%) of the civil service positions, as your father, Kemal bey, taught you to always demand, based on his famous motto, "one Turk equals the whole world."

However, in Greek we have another motto. "Opios thelei ta polla, channei kai ta liga," meaning, "anyone demanding too much, in the end looses even the very little!"




I would love to remind you that the idea to reduce the percentage cause all of those fuss in Cyprus (T.Cs rejecting it and leaving the republic). In your constitution it is 30%. I say do not change it. You get pissed off. This gives a simple idea about you and your thoughts. There is nothing called equal opportunity, because I believe there will always be an apartheid against T.Cs unless they have positive priviledge. As you are so pissed off again, then you are against any kind of priviledge towards T.Cs. I am in doubts about your sympathy. Besides, I am not that kind of person that you had portrayed in your mind and in your posts. 30% is what we already have in your constitution. We are not demanding any NEW thing you pathetic.



garbitsch, in my opinion; I guess, when the 60s proposals was being negotiated, the number of TCs who abandoned Cyprus during the British rule also calculated as if they would have returned to Cyprus after the establishment of RoC. It is a fact that during the British rule many thousands of TCs immigrated to Turkey and other countries because of various reasons. On the other hand, during and after the ww2 many thousands of Greeks from various places immigrated to Cyprus.

Actually, if TCs constitute %18 of population of Cyprus, they don't need a quota more than their population percentage in all government posts. However if some 100 thousand TCs return/immigrate to/from Cyprus and the population percentage of TCs reaches/drops to %xx; then the sharing of government posts should be reexamined and arranged, according to the new ratio of population percentage of two communities.

Actually this was not what made TCs to react 13 points of Makarios. The 13 points package of Makarios was prepared to degrade TC community to a minority status. TC reaction was against the philosophy of the complete package. As a matter of fact, during the inter-communal talks between the years 1968-73, Turkish side accepted a %20 quota for TCs in all goverment posts and public services.
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Postby erolz » Sun May 01, 2005 3:02 pm

My understanding (which might be wrong as ever) was that the disproprtionate representation of TC in the civil service in the 1960 agreements was a reflection of a disproprtionate TC representation under British rule as a result of GC British hostility in this period. It was though that forcing TC from civil service posts they already held previously would lead to increased tension between the communites.
Today the situation is reversed and some (many?) TC civil service jobs would mean a loss of such a job for a GC. So I guess you can argue that TC should accept an % of civil service jobs less than their numerical numbers - at least until the % can be brough in line with population % via retirements rather than redundencies. Personaly I would have no problem with such a proposal - but then I have no interest in a civil service job present or future.
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Postby magikthrill » Sun May 01, 2005 3:21 pm

erolz wrote:My understanding (which might be wrong as ever) was that the disproprtionate representation of TC in the civil service in the 1960 agreements was a reflection of a disproprtionate TC representation under British rule as a result of GC British hostility in this period. It was though that forcing TC from civil service posts they already held previously would lead to increased tension between the communites.
Today the situation is reversed and some (many?) TC civil service jobs would mean a loss of such a job for a GC. So I guess you can argue that TC should accept an % of civil service jobs less than their numerical numbers - at least until the % can be brough in line with population % via retirements rather than redundencies. Personaly I would have no problem with such a proposal - but then I have no interest in a civil service job present or future.


According to the UN declaration of Human Rights there is a clause somewehre that says everyone is entitled to equal access to civil services. By applying percetnages of a community to civil services doesnt this violate this human right?

Again this is an actual question not a sarcastic one ;)
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Postby insan » Sun May 01, 2005 4:53 pm

magikthrill wrote:
erolz wrote:My understanding (which might be wrong as ever) was that the disproprtionate representation of TC in the civil service in the 1960 agreements was a reflection of a disproprtionate TC representation under British rule as a result of GC British hostility in this period. It was though that forcing TC from civil service posts they already held previously would lead to increased tension between the communites.
Today the situation is reversed and some (many?) TC civil service jobs would mean a loss of such a job for a GC. So I guess you can argue that TC should accept an % of civil service jobs less than their numerical numbers - at least until the % can be brough in line with population % via retirements rather than redundencies. Personaly I would have no problem with such a proposal - but then I have no interest in a civil service job present or future.




According to the UN declaration of Human Rights there is a clause somewehre that says everyone is entitled to equal access to civil services. By applying percetnages of a community to civil services doesnt this violate this human right?

Again this is an actual question not a sarcastic one ;)



In my opinion, I don't think by applying fair percentages for two ethnic communities in civil services would constitute a violation of human rights. In limits of shared quotas, the people of each community is still free to apply government jobs.

Let's say in a country the necessary man power for civil services is 10.000 persons. Could any citizen argue why it is 10.000 and not 50.000 just because the ones who wishes a job in civil services are 50.000? Citizens could only argue about if any discrimination and irregularities are made according to the relevant laws and regulations.


In cyprus, we are talking about the partnership of two ethnic communities. Since this is a partnership of two ethnic communities, two communities would like to guarantee a fair share in civil services. What is fair share of each community. Of course it should be the quota equal its population percentage.

If the each partner communities correctly makes its social and economical plannings, according to their needs and legal quotas; they can educate and train sufficient number of people for the civil services, agricaltural areas, tourism sector, construction industry etc.

The ruling elites of two communities should respect the existence and balanced share of each other. Let's say TCs have %13 share in tourism industry and there are many TC investors who wish to invest in tourism sector; the central government should take measures in favour of TC community until TC share in tourism industry reaches %18.

Let's say GCs have %50 share in agricaltural areas and there are many GCs who wish to invest in agricaltural areas; the central government should take measures to increase the GC share up to around %82.

I believe this is the only way to create the economically, psychologically, socially, culturally and politically stable Cyprus. And the only way to protect the fair shares of each community is a legislative and judicial body based on political equality of two communities.
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Postby magikthrill » Sun May 01, 2005 5:07 pm

insan wrote:

In cyprus, we are talking about the partnership of two ethnic communities. Since this is a partnership of two ethnic communities, two communities would like to guarantee a fair share in civil services. What is fair share of each community. Of course it should be the quota equal its population percentage.


Equal quote would mean for example if there are 1000 jobs available then 200,000 GCs would be compete for 200 jobs and 800 000 GCs would be competeing for 800 jobs. This of course does not violate the charter.

however, if 200 000 GCs are competing for 500 jobs as are GCs then , imo, this is a violation since GCs are not entitled to equal acess, right?


The ruling elites of two communities should respect the existence and balanced share of each other. Let's say TCs have %13 share in tourism industry and there are many TC investors who wish to invest in tourism sector; the central government should take measures in favour of TC community until TC share in tourism industry reaches %18.

Let's say GCs have %50 share in agricaltural areas and there are many GCs who wish to invest in agricaltural areas; the central government should take measures to increase the GC share up to around %82.



Oh wow,

so youve already decided that a united Cyprus is going to have a socialist government huh? :lol:
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Postby insan » Sun May 01, 2005 6:20 pm

so youve already decided that a united Cyprus is going to have a socialist government huh?


You can name this system whatever you want. :)
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