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EOKA

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Postby erolz » Tue May 24, 2005 2:50 am

magikthrill wrote:in the begining of the cyprus conspiracy there is a mention that more GCs were killed by EOKA than TCs. is this true?


I guess this all depends on when you consider EOKA ceased to exists. If your view is that EOKA ceased to exists in 1960 then yes this is probably accurate. If however you take the view that EOKA (and as Makarios put it - the duty of the the heros of EOKA can never be considered as terminated until the TC have been expelled from Cyprus - a loose version of what he is report to have actually said in 62) continued after 1960 then no it is not true. For a TC if the people attacking you are the same people in EOKA pre 1960, using the same command structures and under the same leadership then you pretty much see them as EOKA.
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Postby Main_Source » Tue May 24, 2005 2:51 am

of course this is divide and rule...u think the British would not know the outcome if TC were going to help dampen a largely GC supported cause!?

The British done this all over the world...who do you think was behind the creation of Pakistan?
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Postby Main_Source » Tue May 24, 2005 2:54 am

(and as Makarios put it - the duty of the the heros of EOKA can never be considered as terminated until the TC have been expelled from Cyprus - a loose version of what he is report to have actually said in 62)


instead of giving us the 'loose' version, can we have the proper quote of what Makarios was supposed to have said please...and where he was quoted to have said it.
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Postby erolz » Tue May 24, 2005 3:32 am

Main_Source wrote:of course this is divide and rule...u think the British would not know the outcome if TC were going to help dampen a largely GC supported cause!?

The British done this all over the world...who do you think was behind the creation of Pakistan?


A largely GC supported cause? You mean their were non Greek/GC supporters of ENOSIS?

The British may well have used divide and rule tactics during their rule in Cyprus. As you say they certainly used the tactic elsewhere. But to say the motivation for employing TC police in fighting EOKA was to persue 'devide and rule' policies is to my mind not correct. It may have been a consequence of their actions - a side benefit so to speak but it was not the primary motivation for such actions imo. The main reason for using TC police was that they could not use police from the community that was attacking them - that is just common sense is it not? They could of course have used no local police at all but that would have naturaly meant a less effecitve countering of EOKA - who let us not forget was gunning down innocent civilian servicemn wives in main shopping streets and melting away into the population.

What do you think the British should have done in the face of EOKA violence in Cyprus? Carried on trying to use GC police to counter it when they knew that some if not the majority of such were actualy working against the British aim of deating EOKA in oeder to avoid creating division between GC and TC?

Do you accept that the persuit of ENOSIS by GC, with no consideration for TC desires or fears about this created a bigger divide between the two communites in Cyprus than anything the British could have done or did do? Or do you think that without British interferance TC would have simply said 'yeah let's unite Cyprus with Greece and make it a Greek Island - that's a great idea'?

The British have much blame for what happened in Cyprus after they left - that I do not disagree with. They do not howver have any where near as much blame imo as Cypriots themselves had and have for the mess Cyprus is in today. Can you accept that?
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Postby erolz » Tue May 24, 2005 3:34 am

Main_Source wrote: instead of giving us the 'loose' version, can we have the proper quote of what Makarios was supposed to have said please...and where he was quoted to have said it.


You could have it (and I have given it before in the past) but you would not believe it - so I will not bother to post the exact 'alledge' quote and where and when it was (alledgedly) made by Makarios.
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Postby Main_Source » Tue May 24, 2005 3:48 am

A largely GC supported cause? You mean their were non Greek/GC supporters of ENOSIS?


As opposed to a fully GC supported cause. You read it in the wrong context but I admit didn't think about wording it correctly.


Do you accept that the persuit of ENOSIS by GC, with no consideration for TC desires or fears about this created a bigger divide between the two communites in Cyprus than anything the British could have done or did do? Or do you think that without British interferance TC would have simply said 'yeah let's unite Cyprus with Greece and make it a Greek Island - that's a great idea'?

The British have much blame for what happened in Cyprus after they left - that I do not disagree with. They do not howver have any where near as much blame imo as Cypriots themselves had and have for the mess Cyprus is in today. Can you accept that?


Yes I see your point...but at the same time, you must also accept that the rise in nationalism under the GC was mainly due to the fat of foreign rule for so long. The rise in nationalism under foreign rule is not just a GC trait.

But anyway, what about the consideration of GC desires? What about them? Was it better for the GC to carry on being lied to and ruled by the British or wait for an invasion by Turkey, which was inspired by words of Ataturk? It was only 1957, a couple years after the formation of Turkey when Dr Kucuk came back from Turkey with plans for spearation...and this was before any major intercommunal violance.

There is no right or wrong in this, only an understanding of points of view.
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Postby erolz » Tue May 24, 2005 4:44 am

Main_Source wrote: you must also accept that the rise in nationalism under the GC was mainly due to the fat of foreign rule for so long. The rise in nationalism under foreign rule is not just a GC trait.


No there was nothing unusal in the GC anti colonial feelings - this period was a period marked by such anti colonial feelings within colonies and within the world in general. What was unusal about the GC expression of this was that they wanted union with another country - not indepndenace of their own country.

Main_Source wrote:But anyway, what about the consideration of GC desires? What about them?


I think personaly and with hindsight if they had wanted and worked for indpendance of Cyprus and sought support for this cause amongst TC community then Indpendance was a guartanteed certainty and with out the need for a resort to violence.Quite possibly peace and unity as well could have been acheived for this independent state.

Main_Source wrote:Was it better for the GC to carry on being lied to and ruled by the British


I have no doubt that without EOKA or ENOSIS or resort to violence Cyprus would have gained it's independance.

Main_Source wrote:or wait for an invasion by Turkey, which was inspired by words of Ataturk? It was only 1957, a couple years after the formation of Turkey when Dr Kucuk came back from Turkey with plans for spearation...and this was before any major intercommunal violance.


Well if invasion from Turkey was a real precived risk for an independant Cyprus then a deal giving the British sovreign bases as part of being granted independance would have been an excellent block against this eventuality imo.

Main_Source wrote:There is no right or wrong in this, only an understanding of points of view.


I am trying to explain my views / persepctive on these issue and if it comes accross otherwise then I appologise for this.
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Postby Main_Source » Tue May 24, 2005 5:05 am

No there was nothing unusal in the GC anti colonial feelings - this period was a period marked by such anti colonial feelings within colonies and within the world in general. What was unusal about the GC expression of this was that they wanted union with another country - not indepndenace of their own country.


Erolz, you dont get it. The Greek Cypriots are just as Greek as the Greeks in Samos, Crete or Rhodes. Cyprus was at that time a British Colony and the British had previously promised the Greek Cypriots and Greece that they would be united. Cyprus and Greece were not joined but Greece was not just 'another country' to the GC. Besides, the British promised Cyprus' union with Greece way before independance was even thought of, and this was always the main priority.

Once again, I fully agree with the ideology with Enosis, considering what was going on in that point in time and Greek Cypriots wanting union with their 'motherland'...although, as the Junta in Greece later came into power, lets just say that I doubt that what would have happened to the TC would have been a good thing.

think personaly and with hindsight if they had wanted and worked for indpendance of Cyprus and sought support for this cause amongst TC community then Indpendance was a guartanteed certainty and with out the need for a resort to violence.Quite possibly peace and unity as well could have been acheived for this independent state.


..and you really believe even if there was no intercommunal violance and the GC and TC were in harmony, Turkey would still have not found an excuse to invade!? Another, reason why GC wanted union with Greece.


I have no doubt that without EOKA or ENOSIS or resort to violence Cyprus would have gained it's independance


In a fantasy world. The British already agreed to leave Cyprus many times previously but made up one excuse after another, like having to stay because of the Suez Canal problem. How long were Greek Cypriots going to get a 'yes' then a 'no'??
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Postby erolz » Tue May 24, 2005 6:19 am

Main_Source wrote:
Erolz, you dont get it. The Greek Cypriots are just as Greek as the Greeks in Samos, Crete or Rhodes.


I understand that this is the feeling of some GC even today - but certainly not all I would venture. I personally consider myself Cyrpiot or Turkish Cypriot. I deny that I am Turkish. I am sure there are GC that feel similarly.

Main_Source wrote:
Once again, I fully agree with the ideology with Enosis, considering what was going on in that point in time and Greek Cypriots wanting union with their 'motherland'...although, as the Junta in Greece later came into power, lets just say that I doubt that what would have happened to the TC would have been a good thing.


All I am saying is that it would imo been a lot better for all of us today if GC had cosidered themselves Cyriots or GC and not Greeks and wanted and worked for an independent Cypriot nation and not ENOSIS.

Main_Source wrote:
..and you really believe even if there was no intercommunal violance and the GC and TC were in harmony, Turkey would still have not found an excuse to invade!? Another, reason why GC wanted union with Greece.


Yes actually I do believe this. I think Turkey feared Cyprus as a Greek owned and controlled state and would have accepted it as an independent nation, the more so in proprtion to the degree which TC had real political power and influence in the independent state.

I actualy find the rationale that GC persued ENOSIS rather than indpendance beacause of fear of attack from Turkey being less if they were part of Greece than if they were indpendant a lot more convincing than the more usual suggestion that GC really wanted indpendance but did not think they could or were to political imature to get that so chose ENOSIS as a more 'viable' option. However I still find either of these rationales less compelling than the idea that the GC wanted ENOSIS and not indepenace was due primarily to nearly a 100 years of 'conditioning' by the Greek Orthdox church diseminating and expounding the mengali ideals to GC. My view is this played a much more significant role than non emotional rational 'weighting' of the possibilites of indepdance vs enosis and of security from Turkey of indpendance vvs enosis. These of course are my own personal views. I do not presnt them as truths, just opinions.

Main_Source wrote:
In a fantasy world. The British already agreed to leave Cyprus many times previously but made up one excuse after another, like having to stay because of the Suez Canal problem. How long were Greek Cypriots going to get a 'yes' then a 'no'??


I personaly think it is a fantasy to believe that without a resort to violence by GC (or Cypriots in general) that Cyprus would today still be a British colony. It may have happened longer than 1960 (though its also possible that if Cypriots had managed to find a common goal of independance of cyprus and persued it togeather its also in the realms of the possible that it would have been acheived earlier as well I think)
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Postby achilles » Tue May 24, 2005 9:10 am

erolz wrote:I understand that this is the feeling of some GC even today - but certainly not all I would venture. I personally consider myself Cyrpiot or Turkish Cypriot. I deny that I am Turkish. I am sure there are GC that feel similarly.



Of course there are but that does not change the fact GCs are as Greek as any other Greek in terms of ethnic origin. Now if certain GCs feel like distinguishing themselves from Greece this is completely understandable and a matter of their own. I guess both GC and TC have their own good reasons to feel and declare detached from their respective motherlands...
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