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Main principles for a solution

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

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Postby PEACE » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:24 pm

Piratis wrote:The central government will come from all Cypriots. If the system will be presidential this means one Cypriot, one vote.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Dear insan,you are late to ask a question like "What's the chance of a TC being elected as a president? " :mrgreen:

Piratis wants a central govement where we haven't got any chance to be elected there ! :lol: Important part is central goverment where it is above constituent states ! :eyecrazy:

All of the Piratis' thoughts build on this base ! :roll: So i'll say him briefly,
We won't accept such a solution,never and never !


Also Piratis is afraiding so much from Turkey's intervention right! What's the aim of this? As we know its not easy to intervene! Internal war started
in 1963 and Turkey could intervene after 11 years! :shock: This intervention's reason was not NOTHING but ethnic cleaning of Turkish Cypriots and Junta of Greece's cope to RC !

So why you are afraiding that much? Why? You have something in your mind? Future cleaning plans?
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Postby Piratis » Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:23 pm

According to 1946 census

Insan, what if I tell you that in 1500 there were 0% Turks. What then? And don't tell me that the Turks came to Cyprus without oppressing anybody. So lets stick with the 18%.

The opposite of this gives the majority an effective sanction power on minority and nullify all of their rights.


No it doesn't because the rights of TCs will be written on the constitution which can change only if TCs agree.

What's the chance of a TC being elected as a president?


I don't know, maybe not much, but it depends. DIKO with less than 20% managed to elect 2 presidents so far. AKEL with 34% didn't manage to elect any president from its own party yet. It depends on how alliances between parties will be formed.
In your own state you will have your governor, which will always be TC. And this governor will be responsible for internal things like education, federal police etc, and not the president.

Piratis wants a central government where we haven't got any chance to be elected there ! Important part is central government where it is above constituent states !


Thats the case with ALL federations dear PEACE. Even in Switzerland which is confederation this is the case:
Art. 49 Supremacy of and Respect for Federal Law
1 Federal law takes precedence over contrary cantonal law.
2 The Confederation shall ensure that the Cantons respect federal law.


Find me one federation where the central government is not above the constituent states and then we will talk. There is no such thing!!

We won't accept such a solution,never and never !


What you really want dear PEACE is a disguised partition, and this is something we will never and never accept.

What we offer is very fair and very generous. If you prefer to be our enemies I have no problem. We will treat you accordingly.

Also Piratis is afraiding so much from Turkey's intervention right! What's the aim of this?


The aim of this is that I want an independent normal country like every other country in the EU. Not a protectorate banana republic.
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Postby PEACE » Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:11 am

Piratis wrote:Find me one federation where the central government is not above the constituent states and then we will talk.


That's not our subject.I mean that you want to dominate us in central goverment where it is the important part that is over above constituent state.After dominating and taking the control and privileges of central goverment's power and authority it won't be difficult to nullify TCs power!

Piratis wrote:What you really want dear PEACE is a disguised partition


IF NOT accepting YOUR DOMINANCE is wanting PARTITION,YES I WANT PARTITION! Is it OK ?



Piratis wrote:The aim of this is that I want an independent normal country like every other country in the EU. Not a protectorate banana republic.


Intervention right makes a country a banana republic? :lol: :lol: :lol: You made me laugh! Of course you have future plans may be [ :2guns: ] so you are saying this.As i said before making an intervention is not easy ! So if you don't try to do something that needs an intervention there won't be intervention.





Piratis wrote:I want an independent normal country


We need time to be normal.Because this island saw many abnormal things and events in the last 40 years.There is still cease-fire situation !
Our past is not normal so in order to make our links normal we need to build-up trust bridges first.Till we build these bridges we need extra security!
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Postby Piratis » Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:24 am

Peace, we are just repeating the same things. I said what I believe is something very fair and is the max compromise we can make. What I propose is a federation just like any other federation in the world.

What you want is a disguised partition, and therefore there is nothing else to talk about with you.
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Postby PEACE » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:09 am

Piratis wrote: What I propose is a federation just like any other federation in the world.


We can't make a federation like any other country in the world as erolz explained to you! There is no one cypriot identity but there is two different ethnic identity that one is in danger of to be dominated by the other party.So we need extra arrangement in order to be protected from this danger.Cyprus issue is different from other issues.Also we have to assume past ethnic events and fights during the formation of new order!
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Postby insan » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:13 am

Insan, what if I tell you that in 1500 there were 0% Turks. What then? And don't tell me that the Turks came to Cyprus without oppressing anybody. So lets stick with the 18%.


%18.7 pure TC land is Ok.


No it doesn't because the rights of TCs will be written on the constitution which can change only if TCs agree.


It does. Both communities rights will be written in constitution which can be changed if majority of Cypriots wish; there's nothing extraordinary with it...




I don't know, maybe not much, but it depends. DIKO with less than 20% managed to elect 2 presidents so far. AKEL with 34% didn't manage to elect any president from its own party yet. It depends on how alliances between parties will be formed.



The relations in senate also depends on alliances amongst the parties so there shouldn't be any disadventegous for GC community. However, I don't believe that any of the GC parties would establish alliances to elect a TC as a president.

In your own state you will have your governor, which will always be TC.


Ok.

And this governor will be responsible for internal things like education, federal police etc, and not the president.



Ok.

What are the responsibilities of the ministers? How many of the ministries will be granted to TCs? Who will appoint them?


In US:



Like the national government, state governments have three branches: executive, legislative, and judicial; these are roughly equivalent in function and scope to their national counterparts. The chief executive of a state is the governor, elected by popular vote, typically for a four-year term (although in a few states the term is two years). Except for Nebraska, which has a single legislative body, all states have a bicameral legislature, with the upper house usually called the Senate and the lower house called the House of Representatives, the House of Delegates, or the General Assembly. To confuse matters further, some states to the entire state legislature as the "General Assembly", with two houses therein. In most states, senators serve four-year terms, and members of the lower house serve two-year terms


Will it be same for the 2 states in Cyprus?



The Structure of US Legislative branch


Article I of the Constitution grants all legislative powers of the federal government to the Congress, which is divided into two chambers, a Senate and a House of Representatives. The Senate is composed of two members from each state as provided by the Constitution. Its current membership is 100. Membership in the House is based on each state's population, and its size is therefore not specified in the Constitution. Its current membership is fixed by statute at 435. Members of the House and Senate are elected by first-past-the-post voting in every state except Louisiana, which has run-offs.



But according to you majority of Cyprus senate should be comprised by GC senators...




http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Federa ... ted_States
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Postby Piratis » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:53 am

%18.7 pure TC land is Ok.

Whats that .7? :)

I don't like this "purity" it reminds me of ethnic cleansing. The point is to live together not separately.
In any case, if you said that since you are the 18% you want 18% of land and you don't want to live mixed with us, that would be something we could discuss. But do you really want that?

It does. Both communities rights will be written in constitution which can be changed if majority of Cypriots wish; there's nothing extraordinary with it...

No, it can not change if majority of Cypriots wish. Thats the whole point of it. Even if 100% of GC wish to change it, which is equal to 78% of Cypriots, it can not change because it requires separate majority from TCs as well.

Will it be same for the 2 states in Cyprus?

Its not that important. Whats important is which powers the central government will have and which will be the powers/responsibilities of the constituent state. In which way each state will handle its internal affairs is up to the state. (as long as what they do is in accordance with EU and federal laws). So if you want to have 10 parliaments to handle your state, have them. No problem.


But according to you majority of Cyprus senate should be comprised by GC senators...

No, I said that the senate can have an equal number of senators from each community. But a majority in the senate will be needed only to change things like the constitution, or to take decisions of great importance. The rest will be handled by the government and the parliament.
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Postby erolz » Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:25 am

Piratis wrote: No, it can not change if majority of Cypriots wish. Thats the whole point of it. Even if 100% of GC wish to change it, which is equal to 78% of Cypriots, it can not change because it requires separate majority from TCs as well.

Its not that important. Whats important is which powers the central government will have and which will be the powers/responsibilities of the constituent state. In which way each state will handle its internal affairs is up to the state. (as long as what they do is in accordance with EU and federal laws). So if you want to have 10 parliaments to handle your state, have them. No problem.


So at the federal level then there will political equality? If not what is to stop a GC majority at the federal level chaging what is under federal jurisdiction and what is under constituent state jurisdiction?


For me I actualy find this detailed 'wrangling' of this % and that % tedious and not what is important (though I agree that ultimately it needs to be done). What matters more to me as an indivdual is not the fine detail of a settlement, but the will of those in power to make a settlement work. Without that will no amount of 'detail work' on a settlement will be worth anything (as was seen in the 60 constituion). You can not create a will to work togeather in friendship and partnership with a document. That will to make a united Cyprus work has to be created in peoples hearts, not on paper.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:49 am

So at the federal level then there will political equality? If not what is to stop a GC majority at the federal level charging what is under federal jurisdiction and what is under constituent state jurisdiction?

The constitution will mention exactly what is under federal and what is under constituent state jurisdiction and the constitution can change only if both communities agree.

What matters more to me as an indivdual is not the fine detail of a settlement, but the will of those in power to make a settlement work.

Those in power represent us, the people. As long as the people feel that they got something that is fair that will promote their well being everything will be ok.
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Postby erolz » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:02 am

Piratis wrote:The constitution will mention exactly what is under federal and what is under constituent state jurisdiction and the constitution can change only if both communities agree.


So you agree to political equality regardless of numerical numbers as far as alterations to the constituion goes?

What assurances would you give me that this 'protection' against unilateral changes to the consitution, will not fail again, as it did in 63?

If a GC majority started a campaign against the 'unfairness' and 'anti demorcatic nature' of a constitution that could only be altered with the consent of a numerical minority, would you stand up against such a campaign. Would you argue with youe fellow GC that on this issue (changes to the consitution) the TC numerical minortiy should have and must have a right to veto any changes - regardless to their numerical numbers?
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