Cyprus-Forum.com

[PEACE]

Everything in Cyprus is a mess. Thinking of integrading the TCs in CR is a good idea but considering the current situation one wonders how on earth this would be done. Only through a revolution…. And will the GCs accept the fact that is impossible for the 18% of the population to just be treated as a minority? The ideal condition is that the 18% should have 18% political rights too. How are these rights secured so that they are not always smashed by the 82%? Should the rights of the 18% get inflasted to 30% (1960 agreements) should the TCs have 50 - 50 rights on some issues, should we have fixed quotas, should we end up to almost 2 separate states like the Anan Plan, should we what?

I don't give any chance to %18 rights be accepted by Tcs ! This means that minority rights are given to Tcs !This is even worse than Republic Of Cyprus ! So this is a dream!

I can say yes to a solution where we have two constitutional states! I can say yes to a solution where Greek Cypriot majority as a population won't eliminate us from general decision process !

[mehmet]

Just as a deviation from the last post, can someone tell me if someone with a UK passport can cross from north to south with no problems? I am in Cyprus this summer, I wondered what my chances were.

[Piratis]

I don't think you will have a problem. If you show your Cypriot ID instead of the UK passport then you will not have problem for sure.

The only possible problem is if they stamp your passport at the airport in the north, because that will show that you entered from an illegal entry.
I think Republic of Cyprus is not going to stamp any EU passports. If they do the same in the north then no problems for sure. (except if they find some other way to make sure that all foreigners enter from the legal ports)

Is it cheaper to travel from UK to north via Turkey than to fly directly to Larnaca?

[mehmet]

I have no Cypriot identity as I was born in UK. I know before when I entered the north from Turkey they stamp a seperate piece of paper instead of in the passport, I don't know if they still do that. If they do I still have to show UK passport, what will be the outcome?

I wish to arrive at Kyrenia from Turkey because I want to spend some time with my family having a holiday there before I arrive in Cyprus, so it's not a question of cost. There is also a political question here. I heard some reports that some Greek Cypriots wont travel north if they have to show ID or passports, I can understand their view even though I don't agree with it. I wont travel to RoC except through TRNC because I recognise that it exists and that my family have existed there since 1974 and that my origins in Cyprus go back hundreds of years. If RoC has a problem with me visiting I will accept it even though I don't agree with it. One of the reasons I am disappointed with referundum failure is because it continues division. If it means I can only visit part of the island my family are from so be it. I would prefer to have no problem to visit RoC and to visit as I have never had problems with Greek Cypriots in UK and believe we have more in common with each other than with people in Ankara and Athens.

[Piratis]

If RoC has a problem with me visiting I will accept it even though I don't agree with it.

RC doesn't have a problem with you visiting. As I said before the only problem can be that you enter from a non recognized port.

Since they don't stamp your passport probably nobody will know from where you entered so you can visit the whole island with no problems.

Before 24th April some said that the green line will became a de facto hard border of the EU. This is not the case though and soon the movement of people and goods between the two areas will be even easier.

[MicAtCyp]

OK Peace, lets talk on your position.2 constituent states.Tell me do you consider it fair that 18% of the population should govern a terittory of 29%?Do you consider it fair that to have such an area a lot of GC properties and land should be "donated" to you-either as per Anan Plan or otherwise?

I propose a better solution for you in which nobody can take your rights away.You keep 18% of the land, forget about any properties yours in the South and ours in the North, forget about unification, 2 completely separate states, each one of them minding its own bussiness.How about that?

And by the way do you really consider the 1960 agreements fair?And still look for something even better for you than those? The 1960 so called "aggreements" were giving you-who were 18% of the population-30% seats in the Parilament, 35% fixed quota on Government jobs,40% in the Army,a Vice President, Veto power, separate municipalities etc etc? Just because the British threatened the GCs "either this or we separate Cyprus in 2 and give half of it to Greece and half to Turkey".

You may call my proposal for equal INDIVIDUAL rights for every citizen, and exact proportinal POLITICAL rights for every community inside a UNITARY STATE a "dream" that the TCs will never accept, but I can also say that Unification on any other different basis (e.g the Anan Plan) is another "dream", that will never happen-and if it ever does it will turn into a nightmare soon.
So in this respect we may continue living in dreams, or just use our logic and evaluate which "dream" can become reality and which not.
Another alternative is to wait until Europe solves the problem by herself, and see with your own eyes what will happen exactly.
**********************
Mehmet,
Of course Trnc exists-who said that it doesn’t.However it exists on stolen lands and properties.That’s why is called a pseudostate, and that’s why it will never be recognised.It is the result of an intervantion, which turned out to be an Invasion and illegal occupation.If it weren’t so there would be no problem in Cyprus. Do I need to say more?

[metecyp]

The 1960 so called "aggreements" were giving you-who were 18% of the population-30% seats in the Parilament, 35% fixed quota on Government jobs,40% in the Army,a Vice President, Veto power, separate municipalities etc etc?

Even these priviliges were NOT enough to make sure that TCs will be represented in the Republic of Cyprus! This is evident from the fact that GCs own the Republic of Cyprus for the past 40 years and these priviliges remained on the paper. That's why we ask for something more, something that will not remain on the paper.

Your individual rights solution is all nice and everything, but how is that going to guarantee that TCs will be listened when it comes to important matters when something like 1960 agreements with so many priviliges could not guarantee anything to TCs?

[mehmet]

micatcyp-

the reality on the ground tells you northern Cyprus does exist, they haven't melted into the Mediterranean. History will tell you that military occupation can become politically permanent. What do you think the EU will do?

As for intervention, surely you are aware 1960 Constitution placed responsibility on Greece, Turkey and Uk. As Greece ordered overthrow of Makarios Turkey was entitled to ensure Turkish Cypriots rights were respected. Still there were massacres of Turkish Cypriots. Maybe your teachers forgot to tell you that also many Greek Cypriots were killed in an internal power struggle between pro and anti Governmentr forces.

[Piratis]

Metecyp,
Privileges do not guarantee peace and friendship, quite the contrary. Maybe if the constitution of RC was more fair in the first place we wouldn't be in this situation today.

History will tell you that military occupation can become politically permanent.

Nothing is permanent. History can also tell you that Cyprus has changed hands a ton of times and Cypriots are always victimized. Are we going to at least try to control our own island for our benefit?

[insan]

And by the way do you really consider the 1960 agreements fair?And still look for something even better for you than those? The 1960 so called "aggreements" were giving you-who were 18% of the population-30% seats in the Parilament, 35% fixed quota on Government jobs,40% in the Army,a Vice President, Veto power, separate municipalities etc etc? Just because the British threatened the GCs "either this or we separate Cyprus in 2 and give half of it to Greece and half to Turkey".

MicAtCyp,

Do you think that if every right of TCs had been based on %18 with no seperate municipalities and veto right; Greece and Enosisist GCs would abandon Enosis idea? I don't think so...

"Missed Opportunity: Denktash-Clerides Letters, Spring & Summer 1971

The intercommunal negotiations resumed in 1968 and continued right up to the troubles of 1974. The two interlocutors for their communities were Rauf Denktash for the Turkish Cypriots, and Glafkos Clerides for the Greek Cypriots, the same two who continued to be, off and on, the main negotiators throughout the remainder of the century. What is interesting about these letters is that they demonstrate, as the set from the early 1960s also did, that the parties were never very far apart on significant issues; most of what separated them were procedural matters that could have been negotiated, had the will been present for a settlement. At root of the ostensible differences was again the matter of local self-governance. Of course, Clerides was not wholly in control of his side=s negotiations, just as Denktash was not the sole decision maker on his side. What happened in this period was a classic missed opportunity to settle the issue, as all sides now acknowledge.
Here we include Denktash's letter to Clerides, setting forth concessions but an insistence on [i][b]local autonomy; a report on Clerides' rendition of the Greek government's pushing Makarios to accept this "surrender," but Makarios resisting[/b][/i]; Clerides' formal response to Denktash, which adhered to Makarios's cautious line; a new round of letters in August; and Clerides, from his memoirs, underscoring the missed chance to settle the two communities' differences peacefully."