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Where do we go from here?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Piratis » Fri May 07, 2004 1:36 am

We disagree.

Here is my position:
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=211

Anything beyond that is not achievable.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Fri May 07, 2004 11:15 pm

Metecyp

You said
"I see some of you still complain about those priviliges, but the fact is that even those priviliges did NOT ensure TC participation in the decision process"

They did not ensure because:
1)they were too much, and the GCs did not like it.
2)because the GCs took the law in their hands, and excersised terrorism, to achieve Enosis
3)because the TCs took the law in their hands, and excersised terrorism, to achieve Taksim.
4)Because the TCs DID NOT CARE CLAIM THEIR RIGHTS LEGALLY and go the the United Nations.Taksim was better.
5)Because there was no EU to cause bleeding to some noses.

The rights of 1960 were giving you so much power that if you the TCs were clever you should demand from your leadership the return to the Cyprus Republic rights than the Anan Plan.After all it is with that constitution that the CR joined the EU and all your rights in there are still intact…. It is for those rights that the EU is helping you now…But unfortunately your leadership managed to brainwash you with that theory "those rights were not enough we want more" because what they actually wanted was 2 separate states to be able hide their DIRTY LAUNDRY.

You TCs should thank God for the No of the GCs.The Anan Plan solution was designed to collapse in all sectors. You name it economic, political, social…. And then the 2 completely separate States would be reality.One GC State, and one TC with 110,00 settlers in 2004 , 1,110,000 in 2014…..

The only solution is a new healthy UNITARY State. All concerns of the TCs must be put down written and explicit in the Constitution.100% individual rights-exact proportional Community rights.All settlers should leave and Turkeys should pay the cost for re-setteling them to Anatolia.
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Postby mehmet » Sat May 08, 2004 2:03 am

keep dreaming
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Postby mehmet » Sat May 08, 2004 2:27 am

You had your chance for a united Cyprus and we know what happened. No immigrants are going to go anywhere unless they choose to, not in the north or the south.

You say Turkish Cypriots took the law into their own hands, we defended ourselves against Greek Cypriot security forces even though we were outnumbered and with less resources. Of course the Cyprus Republic did what it liked and Makarios try to gain sympathy of the world. In the end the Greek government tried to kill him and overthrew the government. What did you expect when the Turkish army come to Cyprus?, for Turkish Cypriots to suddenly join Greek Cypriot and Greeks forces to fight them when you had been enforcing your majority rights on us for so long?

So when you talk about the failings of 1960 Constitution just remember who it was that had the power all that time and stop blaming the minority for trying to ensure Makarios kept to his side of the bargain instead of trying to change the constituition so that he could take even less notice of us.

You wanted for us to go to the United Nations? You mean like Cyprus government did? You mean like the Arabs have done regarding Palestine? Admit it, the UN only exists to prevent war and disputes between countries. It can do nothing for conflicts within countries, it wasn't established to resolve internal conflict but to maintain peace between nations. Since 1974 when Turkish Cypriots get out of Cyprus republic suddenly there is interest in UN trying to solve problem. Well the UN just put a lot of energy into Cyprus and now they move out and go somewhere else where maybe their efforts will be better appreciated. Even Papadopoulos say nothing will change for the time being, so Mr No has no alternative after all apart from saying how he will make sure Turkish Cypriots benefit form EU. I said before those politicians whio didn't like Annan Plan should go to work on an alternative if they are serious. So far there is no sign.
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Postby metecyp » Sat May 08, 2004 4:48 am

The only solution is a new healthy UNITARY State.

Unitary state is only a dream, not even a dream. TCs will never accept a unitary state or RC solution. We will have a bicommunal, bizonal, federal Cyprus and that's it. This structure might be Annan type structure, or something like Piratis suggested, only time will show, but in the end, we'll have a federation, unitary state is out of question.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Sat May 08, 2004 5:46 pm

And I insist that if the EU will undertake to gradually solve the Cyprus Problem by enforcing its law, the final outcome will BE a unitary state with the constitution of 1960 with which the Cyprus Republic joined the EU. Bizonality will have no political meaning other than the fact that most of the TCs will continue to live at the northern part.

On the other hand if there will ever be an agreed solution between the 2 sides, then yes the outcome will be a bizonal bicommunal Federation.This is not a big IF, it is a huge IF. The 2 sides will NEVER agree. In this respect Mehmet, and Metecyp, keep dreaming too!

The only punishment for you, who were not so clever all these years to return right away to your 1960 rights, will be your lost time until then.But what can we do, nobody is perfect.
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Postby mehmet » Sat May 08, 2004 6:10 pm

You have high hopes of the EU enforcing its law, just like many Greek Cypriots had high hopes UN would help you out. Until recently that is when they and the EU realise how reliable some of your statesmen are.

Can you quote me a single example of how EU has resolved inter-ethnic disputes in any of it's states. Perhaps in northern irelnad. Actually the recent moves towards peace have more to do with the northern irish themselves, the irish and the british. After they realised that only they can make peace. What do you see happening, EU army? Or perhaps you think EU will get Turkey to abandon northern Cyprus to get into EU? I agree with Piratis that Turkey will never be allowed to join EU, so last possibility is an impossibility. So exactly how is EU going to solve problem, and why do you imagine their solution will involve unitary state.
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Postby metecyp » Sat May 08, 2004 6:55 pm

So exactly how is EU going to solve problem, and why do you imagine their solution will involve unitary state.

Good question. And don't forget that EU was totally in favor of the Annan plan. That means they accept the principles of Anann plan and they don't consider the plan to be against their laws and principles. Now, if they don't consider the plan against their own principles, then how can you expect them to come up with something totally opposite to the Annan plan?
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Postby MicAtCyp » Sun May 09, 2004 11:21 am

Metecyp,

You said "That means they accept the principles of Anann plan and they don't consider the plan to be against their laws and principles."

I say No, this is not what they said.They said whatever we agree they will accept it. However they did not sign any guarantee for that.The Anan Plan had derrogations extending upto 19 years.The maximum they accept is 15 years.The whole philosophy of the Anan Plan is against the EU Aquis.They said they will accept it if both sides say "yes".That would be the Aquis for cyprus. Turkey was afraid that finally all doors would be open for overthrowing the Anan Plan since the EU Aquis would be above that of Cyprus..So she asked that the Anan Plan contains a clause that the EU will adopt its Primary law (its own Aquis)to be as per Anan Plan.I can assure you the EU Council has not such authority to approve such a thing and this had to go through the 25 parliaments of ALL members where it had ZERO chance to pass.The result would be that the new United Cyprus would eventually be on the air-half of it in, and half of it out of the EU.The Generals in Turkey would insist on the Primary law, and eventually the EU itself would be forced to throw the UC out…..Remember the law with which Cyprus was accepted was the CR law and not the law of the Anan Plan.It took more than 4 years intensive negotiations to adapt that law to the EU!

Now you expect me to describe you how EU will solve the Cyprus problem in a long term procedure that might take upto 30 years…. Anyway I will help you as much as I can, at least to enable you make a start in this direction. You must remember that the EU is not a military Union (Nato) is not the UN either. The power of the EU is the MONEY. The EU works like this.Either you acccept my law and you earn money or you remain isolated and you starve.Whats the EU doing now?It will give money to the TCs and will open them all doors to start earning money.Exports of agricultural products, industrial products etc, free movement of EU tourists.These first steps are on their way ALREADY and the TCs will start making money.Second step.The GCs will start sueing the EU because it accepts products from stolen gardens, they will sue the travel agents of the EU for bringing tourists at stolen hotels.Third step.The EU will force private agreements between the owners of the gardens and hotels with those who use them.The initial agreement will be on "a rent basis".The same thing will happen to those who use the TC properties in the free areas. I leave the rest to your ability to predict….

About Turkey joining the EU.I don't know what Piratis said, as I am new in this forum.Here is my opinion.

I think Turkey will NEVER become a full member of the EU. The main reason is because Turkey is such a big Country (70 million today 80-85 in 15 years.It will surpass Germany in population by then.If she joins she becomes the first political power due to its size.This cannot be because turkey does not have an equal economic power and most propably never will.So the big guys in the EU i.e Germany, UK, France etc will never accept such a situation.
On the other hand, Turkey being completely outside the EU would be catastrophic for both Turkey and the EU.

Turkey is very unstable and disoriented. She needs something more than the usual alliances of convenience. The number of Europe's problems, from inviding Turkey in , would be multiplied tenfold when they keep Turkey out. The Turkish economy will totally collapse. Trafficking of people and drugs to Europe through Turkey will flourish. War and terrorism will also be a way out, for them.

So the only solution out of this, is finally to give Turkey a date to start negotiations.These negotiations will last for ever, Turkey knows it EU knows it. It will be their little secret. Does the "special relation" being whispered already in the EU ring a bell to you?But so what? Turkey will benefit the maximum possible from the EU, have no real problems in trading with EU etc. In the end I think Turkey will become a lifetime affiliate Country, with all the benefits this means. But to achieve even that she must become a true Democratic Country, proceed to reforms etc and OF COURSE SOLVE THE CYPRUS PROBLEM and her problems with Greece in the Aegean. The soonest, the better for her the better for everyone else.

PS. As a Cypriot I think to be "an affiliate Country" is much better than be a full member in the EU. You have full control of your Country, chose only the EU regulations you like-most of them are stupid regulations that just serve some monopolies-you pay nothing to the EU, and you are as European as you like. There is a little problem with Trading on equal basis but that goes away by the years.

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Postby PEACE » Fri May 21, 2004 6:57 pm

The rights of 1960 were giving you so much power that if you the TCs were clever you should demand from your leadership the return to the Cyprus Republic rights than the Anan Plan.


Illogical things ! We saw what happened with Republic Of Cyprus.It was a stable order but someone(?) did it instable... Guess who?
:roll:

Clue : This ones tried to get the rights of other community with changing RC constitution and tried to annex Cyprus to Greece.You find who? :roll:
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