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Where do we go from here?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Where do we go from here?

Postby redmania » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:21 pm

What will happen now? Surely the division of Cyprus can not last for ever?

Change, should be instigated on all fronts.

Mr Talat and other respectable politicians should make regular visits to the south and vice versa. The politicians must build trust with one another, they should lead by example. They must build their relationship if a federation is to work. The political parties should work harder to steer us towards europe and to a fully democratic and fair society.

I think change should come in all its forms, we should run more workshops with GC and TC children. I was lucky enough to attend 3 at Ledra palace when I lived in Cyprus and it was one of the most fantastic experiences I have ever had. It removed all my previous prejudices for good. Workshops have to be done regurlary on bothsides with people of all ages, we have to remove this pseudo fear factor.

Turkey should reduce the number of troops by half if not more. Lets face it, 6000 spotty faced Greek Cypriot teenagers who would rather be at university or drinking Frappe possess no threat what so ever. It should also cease to consistently fly its military jets over our island.

The Greek and Turkish flags should be withdrawn from border crossings. The big Turkish flag on the mountain range overlooking Nicosia should be removed. A third Cypriot TV station funded by Cypriot tax money should be run by TC under the name of PIK3.

All road signs in the south must be changed to bear three Languages Greek, Turkish and English. More TC should be employed by the Republic of Cyprus to help with ethnic relations. More TC should be employed in Civil service, Hospitals etc and finally Greek and Turkish should be taught at primary school level.

The Church and Mosque should keep their opinions to themselves and embrace change and culture.

Change can not happen over night its a gradual thing, we can influence peoples opinions by showing them the truth. We have to make changes at the very foundations of both our societies. We should not be afraid of each other. We should interact more and gain each others trust. then we can build a nation together.
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Postby metecyp » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:44 pm

So you're basically saying we should gradually integreate TCs in the Republic of Cyprus, correct? This might be one way to go, and this is the root of the problem actually. Even today, a TC is not as equal as a GC in Republic of Cyprus (don't deny this). For example, I find it offensive that I am made to walk through the fenced area in Ledra Palace when crossing from north to south just because I am a TC. I asked this once to a GC police and I asked him why I have to go through the fence if I'm also considered a RC citizen. He couldn't say anything of course.

However, I don't think that integrating TCs in RC will get us a final solution. It will be helpful for TCs to trust GCs, but at the end of the day, no TC will agree to live in a unitary state like RC. Whether we like it or not, we'll have some kind of a federation if we'll ever have a solution.
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Postby insan » Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:09 pm

You well said redmania... It's easy to speak and say this should be done this should not be done... I can add a thosand more to yours...

So...? What has been solved? Nothing... Action needed! Where's all those civil public organizations which had been funded by UN, EU and US? No money, no action?


Well... Money talks then...
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Postby Piratis » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:25 pm

For example, I find it offensive that I am made to walk through the fenced area in Ledra Palace when crossing from north to south just because I am a TC.


Can you clarify what you mean?
What I know is that anybody that comes from north has to pass from some kind of check for obvious reasons, but I am not sure what this fenced area you refer to is. GC pass from different area when crossing from north to south?

redmania, you talked about how we can lift some of the injustices against TC and this is right. But don't you think that at the same time at least some of the injustices against GC should be lifted also?
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Postby metecyp » Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:17 am

Can you clarify what you mean?
What I know is that anybody that comes from north has to pass from some kind of check for obvious reasons, but I am not sure what this fenced area you refer to is. GC pass from different area when crossing from north to south?

This might have changed since the last summer, but last summer, when I wanted to cross to the south, I first crossed the TC border, then I came to the GC border, and there was a seperate fenced path special for TCs. There was a sign saying something like "TCs this way" or something. So I had to go through that path, and then present my ID to the GC police in the little house every time I crossed.

On the other hand, no GCs were ever asked to present their IDs to anyone when they came back from the north to the south. I know this because my GC friend and I were crossing from north to south once, and the GC police made me go through that fenced area and present my ID to the police in the little house, while my GC friend walked right through (cos my friend said hi to the police in Greek, so he knew that I was TC and my friends was GC)

Some of my friends had RC ID cards, and they would try to show their RC ID cards without going through that fenced path to that little house. But no luck, even then the GC police would make them walk through that fenced path to show their IDs to GC police.

Similarly, when I came back from south, again I was made to walk through that fenced path to cross to the north even though you don't need to present any ID to cross from south to north at the GC border. On the other hand, I would watch GCs walk anywhere they want because they were speaking to each other in Greek, so the police knew that they were Greek, so he didn't make them so through that path.

These are not major issues, but this is just one example where being a RC citizen means different things depending on your ethnicity. I heard similar stories about RC passports. I don't remember the details but I heard that when a TC wants to renew his/her RC passport, GC authorities renew it maximum 3 years or so, but they renew it for up to 9 years for a GC. Now who's going to believe that we're all equal RC citizens?
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Postby redmania » Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:57 am

I am advocating a federation. I think we need to build bridges first, we must be in contact with one another on a social and business level if a federation is to succeed.

We can not just install a federation without integrating. If you segregate, then your problems will never go away and will probably become worse. What I am suggesting is a step in the right direction, if some of the things I said were implemented, I think we would feel more comfortable with one another and when the transition comes from Republic etc to Federation the people will find it alot easier to comprehend.
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Postby Piratis » Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:29 pm

Now who's going to believe that we're all equal RC citizens?


Personally I agree 110% that all TC have to be equal RC and EU citizens. And that language or religion etc should not matter.

The problem is: Do you want to be equal RC-EU citizens? Equal doesn't mean only equal benefits. it means equal responsibilities also.
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Postby metecyp » Thu Apr 29, 2004 7:26 pm

The problem is: Do you want to be equal RC-EU citizens? Equal doesn't mean only equal benefits. it means equal responsibilities also.

TCs haven't been given the choice to decide if they want to be equal RC-EU citizens up till now. I'm not going to say I want to be a RC citizen when every part of RC (RC police, RC officer in the passport office etc.) considers me something else. As I told you, my friends had RC ID cards, they are officially RC citizens and they were still treated differently by the GC police. It's not what's on the paper I'm talking about here. It's the whole mentality of GC people in general.

A more important question is this: Are you ready as a community to embrace TCs as the equal citizens of RC?

My experiences so far says no.
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Postby Piratis » Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:19 pm

A more important question is this: Are you ready as a community to embrace TCs as the equal citizens of RC?

My experiences so far says no.

We definitely are.

But as you said many times RC doesn't belong just to us. We do not own RC. If as a community you decide that you want to be part of the RC again and start fulfilling your responsibilities and receiving your benefits there is absolutely nothing that can stop you from doing so. At least we will not and we will welcome you. I don't know how Turkey will react though.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:08 pm

Metecyp,
There are 1500 TCs currently living in Limassol. In total I think about 2500 TCs are living in the free areas. There are at least 5 University professors and some TCs have very good Government jobs Although many few I must admit. All these people are treated the same like the GCs. Denktash however considers them traitors. At the referendum Denktash did not allow them to go there to vote. And because the referendum was a community affair they could not vote in the GC community either. So those people DID not vote.

The problem of the GCs and the different attitute, is towards the TCs who live in the occupied areas. I admit the majority of the GCs don't feel very well or at least they are confused as how to treat them. Its a psychological thing. The first thought is "this guy took my house from which I was thrown out. He is a dirty Turk". Second thought "Why do I blame this human, its not his fault". Third thought "Who knows maybe he is pro - unification, maybe he is pro status quo, maybe is pro Denktash, maybe he wants his TRNC regognised and our stolen properties to become his". Fourth though "why is he crossing, where will he go? They blaim us we raised their homes and villages to the ground. So where will he go? Is he carrying narcotics maybe? " Fifth thought "He is a TC, he is our BROTHER, should trust him more". And final thought "what the hell I don't know, better not talk to him, better be cautious".

So Mete I hope you understand that some people never go to the final thought but just stick in between. Including many policemen of course…. . Some people just stick to "we are brothers" though…Mete I watch your posts, you are a person of VERY deep insight, I wish I could understand the TCs the same way you do for the GCs. I appreciate you very much for that.

Everything in Cyprus is a mess. Thinking of integrading the TCs in CR is a good idea but considering the current situation one wonders how on earth this would be done. Only through a revolution…. And will the GCs accept the fact that is impossible for the 18% of the population to just be treated as a minority? The ideal condition is that the 18% should have 18% political rights too. How are these rights secured so that they are not always smashed by the 82%? Should the rights of the 18% get inflasted to 30% (1960 agreements) should the TCs have 50 - 50 rights on some issues, should we have fixed quotas, should we end up to almost 2 separate states like the Anan Plan, should we what? I tried many times to give answers, in fact I do have an answer but the point is, how do we move from where we are today to that point?

About the passports: They say it is the new rule of EU. FromDecember 2003 all Cypriot passports will be valid for 3 years only because they must have a recent photograph. The same goes for the identity cards. So everybody’s passport today should be issued on a 3 year validity.

About the crossing of the peddestrians through a fenced corridor: I am not sure if there is still a fenced corridor but as far as I remember the TCs were initially crossing from the left side of the corridor and the GCs from the right side. I think now there are no such things, anyway from the car exits I am sure there are no fences only traffic cones.
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