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Kikapu's "BBF" Power Sharing Plan.!

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby Kikapu » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:21 pm

lovernomore wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
lovernomore wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Not so fast, VP.

The answer depends on what options you present the GCs with, in whether or not they want to be accommodating to allow the north state to remain majority TCs. If the overwhelming GC refugees land is returned to become part of the south state, then the answer is a "NO", but if you want to keep the overwhelming GCs land to become part of the north state, then the answer is a possible "YES". You would control the outcome based on how much GC land you want to keep. You cannot keep their land and then not expect them to try and get it back in anyway they can. By returning only 7-8% land back as per AP, you are not even returning the land of 50,000-60,000 GCs, which would then leave about 120,000 GCs land in the north, which they will have the right to move into under freedom of movement, even if they are all not able to return back to the same houses, but will be able to return back to the villages they once lived before. With 120,000 GCs already in the north state, it will be very easy to increase their numbers by more GCs moving to the north, just because they will have security through their numbers. If on the other hand the north state is reduced to 18%-20% and most TCs would live in the north, then only a very smal number of GCs would have their property in the north, less than 30,000 GCs. Even if they all would move to the north, which I doubt more than 5,000 moving, the TCs would maintain the overwhelming majority and still have a Democratic system.

I had also stated in my BBF thread, that if the TCs were to make good compromises on land to be returned back to the GCs where the overwhelming majority of the GC land is returned, then the TCs can ask for derogation from the EU and the GCs to only allow those GCs who still have land in the north state to become the "Grandfathered-in Population" with all their Democratic rights protected. What that would mean is that, lets just say 30,000 GCs still has property in the north state, that those 30,000 GCs would then have the right to be in the north state, whether they actually live in the north state or not. They would become the "Grandfathered-in Population" of the north, against the population of the TCs at around 70,000-80,000 and 50,000 allowed settlers to total around 140,000-150,000 TCs plus more TCs coming from abroad to settle in the north as time goes by, which would push the north's TC population to a potential 200,000. The derogation would be, that the number of potential GCs wanting to live in the north state can grow ONLY at the same rate as the growth of the TC population in the north (Cypriot citizens only). If the TC population grows at 2% per year, then the north's potential maximum GC population can only grow at 2% also, based on the "Grandfathered in Population" numbers, which is 30,000, allowing growth rate of about 600 more GCs to be added to that 30,000 number to become 30,600 for that year whether or not they are actually living in the north. This new number, 30,600 will then become the next "Grandfathered-in Population" for that year. The smaller the north state is with as little GCs properties as possible, the smaller the "Grandfathered-in Population" number will be.

These are the option you need to decide on. I don't believe you will get that many GCs living in the north however, therefore the above derogation would be only academic and redundant and may never be used, but it will secure the TCs keeping the north majority TCs as well as keeping the upper house seats in the TCs hand in a Democratic way, agreed to by all sides.! If you want the same derogation to apply by keeping the north state to be around 30%,then the GCs may not be so accommodating and will tell you "NO". Why would they let you keep their land in the north state when they want to be in the south state. Even if they said yes, then the "Grandfathered-in Population" would start from around 120,000 GCs with an increase of 2,400 per year at 2% vs. the population of the TCs in the north at around 150,000, assuming all the TCs would move to the north state. As you can see from the numbers, you will create a lot of problems for yourselves in trying to keep the north a majority TC and keeping the upper house in the hands of the TCs. There is no free lunch, VP. You choose, but be prepared to live with the consequences when things start going wrong for you in the north politically if you want to keep most of the GC land to remain in the north state.

But there is a much easier way to do away with all these problems, and that is to do away with ethnic political parties altogether in Cyprus and have ONLY Political Parties based on Political ideology. How can anyone then have any concerns who lives where and how many, since all the political parties would include people from all ethnicity. That is the way how civilized countries have done it in a multi ethnic places, like Switzerland for example, as well as all the multicultural societies across the Democratic West.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=130


For you to think on thse terms for Cyprus tells me only one thing, YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CYPRUS OR GC'S, you claim to be TC and I say YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT TC's.


You already told me that you would rather have an uncivilized system based on ethnic groups, apartheid system, ethnic cleansing and a system of division. I'll bear you in mind next time I put another "peace plan" together just so to make you happy.! :roll: :roll: :roll:


why dont you get a hobby, maybe bilding model airplanes? Leave Cyprus issue to Cypriots that know the good the bad and the ugly about the place.


:lol: :lol:

Actually, I like real planes better.!

I already know who the ugly ones are. Trust me, you don't want me to name names.! :wink: :lol:
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Re: Kikapu's "BBF" Power Sharing Plan.!

Postby repulsewarrior » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:37 pm

thank-you Kikapu, after all this time, re-reading this topic is refreshing; i would vote for it.
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Re: Kikapu's "BBF" Power Sharing Plan.!

Postby Oceanside50 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:25 am

I still think that the judicial system n Cyprus needs to be revamped. Where individual rights are valued more then the whole/community 's...once that's done and proven for it's effectiveness then we are one step closer
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Re: Kikapu's "BBF" Power Sharing Plan.!

Postby Kikapu » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:02 pm

repulsewarrior wrote:thank-you Kikapu, after all this time, re-reading this topic is refreshing; i would vote for it.


Thank you, Warrior. :D

This thread had been collecting dust for a while. :lol:
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Re: Kikapu's "BBF" Power Sharing Plan.!

Postby repulsewarrior » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:04 pm

...i was afraid to comment on it, it was vp which got me curious again.

actually it meets many of the criteria that i also attempted to demonstrate, that the issue of Cyprus is an issue of Freedom, and that the issue of Liberty can be defined for the betterment of all people, as Persons. frankly, my biggest concern over both our proposals is actual cost, it will likely require a bureaucracy just as large today. i don't exactly get GR's comments, although i expect that his views are much like vp's, racism is important to them but they are at two extremes. indeed the good intentions in these proposals can manifest into the "Greek" and the "Turk" which resides in every one of us if the choice is made to betray the gift Mankind, in the Modern Age, gave to us as Cypriots. but i also believe that the Human Race is better than it was 50 years ago, and that it is these fears which are still being exploited only to resist the changes we must make, as Cypriots, in ourselves.

...given the present situation, i'm curious Kiks, could a Greek Constituency be useful in breaking the deadlock in the negotiations with the Turkish Constituency, because as a result, the Republic is freed from being the "Greek" representative as such?

given that it is a workable BBF that we are looking for, is this a good next step?
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Re: Kikapu's "BBF" Power Sharing Plan.!

Postby Oceanside50 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:01 am

Would the Greek Cypriots accept this?


Cyprus joins NATO, the past Guarantee powers Greece, Turkey, Britain are no longer. Nato gurarantees the sovereignty of Cyprus.

All Turkish troops and Turk settlers removed

All remaining points of the Annan Plan stay the same
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Re: Kikapu's "BBF" Power Sharing Plan.!

Postby B25 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:52 am

Oceanside50 wrote:Would the Greek Cypriots accept this?


Cyprus joins NATO, the past Guarantee powers Greece, Turkey, Britain are no longer. Nato gurarantees the sovereignty of Cyprus.

All Turkish troops and Turk settlers removed

All remaining points of the Annan Plan stay the same


NO. To much else is wrong with the AP. It's not just the troops and settlers. They would be gone tomorrow and we would still be handing Cyprus on a plate to turkey.

Removal of the guarantor powers, troops and settlers should be a pre-requisite to any further talks anyway. They are not doing us a favour, it is international law.
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Re: Kikapu's "BBF" Power Sharing Plan.!

Postby Lordo » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:18 pm

i thought i could smell something, so this is what it was.
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Re: Kikapu's "BBF" Power Sharing Plan.!

Postby kurupetos » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:02 pm

Lordo wrote:i thought i could smell something, so this is what it was.

Yes, it wasn't.
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Re: Kikapu's "BBF" Power Sharing Plan.!

Postby bigOz » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:51 am

Kikapu! What a load of rubbish you have produced again.

Of course as a GC (I do not understand why some still think you are a TC) you have produced a one sided representation of things, based on current American states and went on to changing things based on ethnicity rather than political differences blah blah! Who told you that there were/are no ethnic differences between the occupants of the federal states in USA? Are you saying California, Texas, Florida and Arizona has the same kind of ethnic population as Idaho, Montana, Dakota and New Jersey?

You give very inflated figures for the number of GCs owning land in the North - forgetting that many have accepted a financial settlement in return for giving up the rights to their land (more would probably do so in future). Meanwhile you have dwindled down the population of TCs to 80,000 assuming that there would have been no growth in their numbers since 1974. The actual TCs living in North are 180,000 at this time (probably another 200-250,000 mainlanders settled both as new citizens and/or illegal immigrants).

So, the Greeks should get their land back in the North, but my land included in the land left behind by some 35-40,000 TCs displaced from their homes and villages in the South should not count! How about us returning back to our land? And how will the land be returned to us when past Governments in the South have constructed, government buildings, car parks whatever on to some of those lands? MOST OF THE VILLAGES AND LAND BETWEEN LİMASOL AND PAPHOS were ACTUALLY OWNED BY the TCs!

You live in a fantasy world and I wish you would stop corrupting GC minds with your useless comical plans. Do you really believe that the TRNC will ever accept a solution where it will allow itself to be parceled into small cantons just like the enclaves before 1974? Do you really believe Karpaz will ever be returned to GCs? That has just as much chance as Istanbul becoming Constantinople again! Erdoğan has been supporting Turkish businessmen invest hundreds of millions of pounds in purchasing land and developing 5 star Hotels in Karpaz area, based on the strength of land purchased form the Greeks over the past couple of years. If you think he has been having these constructed for the GCs to take over when (if) Karpaz is returned, you better think again!

Let me tell you what I think will happen in a more likely scenario. GCs will settle for the return of Varosha and allow the use of Turkish airspace / ports by the GCs who desperately need both to improve their economy - this will be in return for lifting the trade embargo on Famagusta and alllowing direct flights to Ercan. Something I expect very likely to happen sometime by the end of this year or the beginning of next.

TCs are no longer interested in the Annan plan! Turkish army will start reducing their numbers and possibly leave a mutually agreed symbolic force (2-3000 men) only when a settlement is agreed to by both sides. All land occupied by the army along the borders will be returned to GCs. Many TC settlers especially those given citizenship over the past 7-8 years will be stripped of those rights and sent back to where they came from. The two sides will negotiate a Federal Solution that is most suitable for the de-facto situation until both sides are ready to live together in a single republic. The rest of the GCs who may have any land left behind will get financial compensation and that will also apply to land left behind on the Greek side by the TCs. Whether you like it or not, there will be no major border changes or displacement of people involved in any agreement!

There is not much point in Kikapu or anyone else screaming that the above is unacceptable because they will not have a say on the subject! You will be surprised just how many GCs will dive at the opportunity of a financial compensation when the time comes - what they say will count - not those of any fantasy solution producers in a forum! Why don't my GC comrades go ask the GCs who left land in the North whether they will take few hundred thousand Euros (actual value depending on size of property) for their land or property left behind 40 years ago with no real sign of a solution in sight!
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