Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexandros Lordos]

so who will be the martyr to explain to TCs that you can have solution without a strict bizonal government and to explin to GCs that settlers can stay and still have a country. i mean theres like over a million albanians in greece, whats wrong with some settlers in cyprus guys?

I would also wish for the GC public to relax a bit on the issue of settlers, I think we are taking the issue far too seriously, when there are more serious concerns we should be focusing on regarding the Cyprus Problem.

Also Magikthrill, you might like to know that in my question "Bizonality to be temporary ..." only about 25% of TCs were dead against, the rest were willing to consider it.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Already sent them to Papadopoulos, Talat, Karamanlis, Prendergast ...

have your results received/ will they receive any official media coverage mentioning they have been sent to these politicians?

It is not wise to capitalize on the fact that "so-and-so politician has received this", because then the politicians feel you are trying to corner them and they don't trust you any more.

Media coverage will probably not happen for at least three more weeks, because I want to analyze the results in detail and make some official presentations in person first.

[erolz]

no i think ignorance is bliss is indeed from 1984 erol.

The phrase is used in 1984 I believe but it did not 'come from' there.

anyway lets keep in topic. alexandros only posts once in a blue moon so lets focus on him for a change

Appologies and agreed (now that I have had the last word )

[magikthrill]

Also Magikthrill, you might like to know that in my question "Bizonality to be temporary ..." only about 25% of TCs were dead against, the rest were willing to consider it.

when it comes to the people of cyprus ive come to realize that "willing to consider" means will do what our leader tells us.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Also Magikthrill, you might like to know that in my question "Bizonality to be temporary ..." only about 25% of TCs were dead against, the rest were willing to consider it.

when it comes to the people of cyprus ive come to realize that "willing to consider" means will do what our leader tells us.

Hmm ... you got me thinking there.

Erol, do you think what Magikthrill is suggesting here is true of the TCs?

What worried me in the poll was that the TCs tended to respond "Yes to all" (i.e they found almost every alternative I suggested to be acceptable) - unlike the GCs who said that some things were acceptable and some things unacceptable. Is this because they are "willing to do anything for a solution", or because they do not have a highly developed personal judgement, expecting instead their leaders to tell them what is and what is not acceptable? Or is it perhaps something else that is making them respond in such a way?

[magikthrill]

i wouldnt undermine TCs in saying that all of their policies depend solely on what their leaders tell them.

my opinion is (and somone correct me if wrong) that TCs have been told they are playing their cards right, as opposed to GCs, and that any solution will favor them with a strict bizonal bicommunal federation and that soon enough the embargoes will be lifted and so there wont be anything to worry about.

is this true (to any extent)?

[metecyp]

My opinion is that there are 3 reasons. First, TCs are more open to change as a society than GCs. Second, TCs have a more general of a solution in their minds. TCs are not stuck up with ideas like "Return of all refugees, settlers, soldiers" like GCs. A solution that guarantees some kind of bizonality and equality is enough for TCs. Third, TCs are fed up with uncertainty and everyone in the north wants and needs a solution. You can't imagine how hard it is to live in uncertainy where you don't even know if the house you live in belongs to you or not.

[erolz]

Erol, do you think what Magikthrill is suggesting here is true of the TCs?

Difficult questions and I am not sure I have any answers. I think an argument can be made that TC have been very 'loyal and prepared to follw their leadeship - based on the long reign of Denktash. However this clearly changed with the Annan plan whereby the people clearly rejected Denktash. In the post Denktash era do I think TC are any more likely to 'blindly' follow their leadership than anyone else? I really am not sure either way on this one.

What worried me in the poll was that the TCs tended to respond "Yes to all" (i.e they found almost every alternative I suggested to be acceptable) - unlike the GCs who said that some things were acceptable and some things unacceptable. Is this because they are "willing to do anything for a solution", or because they do not have a highly developed personal judgement, expecting instead their leaders to tell them what is and what is not acceptable? Or is it perhaps something else that is making them respond in such a way?

Again I am hesitant to try and answer these questions, mainly because I do not feel qualifed to do so and od not really have any strong held beliefs on these issues. There is a perception amongst some people that I have heard expressed that TC are more 'easy going' and less 'ideologicvaly driven' than their GC counterpatrs but am not really sure to what degree this is ture if at all. I also think that there is a very real and very deep sense of 'weariness' in the TC ommunities 'phsyce' and at some (emotional) level there is a feeling of let's just settle this any way we can. Clearly this emotional level is not dominant in the TC leadership of people at a rational level where we want a solutiuon but not at any price, but emotionaly I think it is there and may reflect this difference in your results? In some ways emotionaly I think the TC want a solution where as emotionaly the GC want justice (as they see it). Again this is just a vague ntion to me and I post such generalisation with reluctance but again it may be that this (somewhat subtle) difference in what we want may account for our differences in pattern of responses to your survey in some part.

my opinion is (and somone correct me if wrong) that TCs have been told they are playing their cards right, as opposed to GCs, and that any solution will favor them with a strict bizonal bicommunal federation and that soon enough the embargoes will be lifted and so there wont be anything to worry about.

is this true (to any extent)?

Again hard to impossible for me to answer as far as the TC community in general goes with any meaning. Instead I will try and answer with my own persepctive. I think we do feel that things changed radically after the Annan vote. That world opinion change after this and that there is real efforts by the international community to not see continuing (economic) punishment dealt out to the TC community for saying yes to the GC no, even if we might feel it is still to much talk and not action. I guess we believe the world that the basis for any fiuture negotiatied solution will BBF and not TC being a poltical minority in Cyprus and I guess we believe that GC will not be able to keep the current level of sanctions against us indefiantely in the face of a failure to agree a settlement based on BBF.

Hmm that ended up as a mix of both the personal and the general. Anyway I hope it provides some sort of answer to your query.

[Alexandros Lordos]

My opinion is that there are 3 reasons. First, TCs are more open to change as a society than GCs. Second, TCs have a more general of a solution in their minds. TCs are not stuck up with ideas like "Return of all refugees, settlers, soldiers" like GCs. A solution that guarantees some kind of bizonality and equality is enough for TCs. Third, TCs are fed up with uncertainty and everyone in the north wants and needs a solution. You can't imagine how hard it is to live in uncertainy where you don't even know if the house you live in belongs to you or not.

Thanks, metecyp.

Your answer clarifies the issue to an extent.

The question that really surprised me, was the one where a property regime was proposed through which original owners would retain ownership of all their property while current occupants will retain the right to stay in them for up to 15 years by paying rent.

I strongly expected the TCs to reject this proposal - as too burdensome financially and as endangering bizonality - but instead the results were 50% Acceptable, 37% Unacceptable, 13% Unsure. Though admittedly this is a lower level of acceptance than all other property proposals, it is still very high, and this is what made me suspicious that perhaps the TC responses were not thoughtful enough.

What do you think?

[metecyp]

What do you think?

To tell you the truth, I'm surprised as well. Nobody in the north even talked about the fact that most of the land/property in the north belongs to GCs before the Annan plan. It's only recently that I started seeing people mentioning on the TV that GCs are still the legal owners of the land/property in the north and this is a problem and we have to solve it politically. The climate in the north is that most of the land in the north will be compensated with the TC land in the south and the problem will go away politically. So I'm surprised to hear that some TCs accept that GCs are legal owners and they further accept to pay for the use of these properties.