Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

I really do understand the GC worries but i also understand the tc worries which is why i do not belittle either side of the coin but some of our forum members do not try and understand, when it comes to kifeas at times he comes accross as intelligent and unbiased at others he seems like that wolf i was talking about in sheep clothing.
In short people should either try to learn and respect ALL cypriot concerns or accept that they are the product of propoganda conditioning and stop pretending to be what they are not.

Brother,
Before going crazy, I suggest to you to read my posting more carefully.
Particularly you should read the sentence that says "to make a federation and share power with a settler majority "TC" community,"

If you know English well, and you know better than me, you should be able to read that what is not acceptable by me and the vast majority of GCs, is not the Federal solution and the power sharing with the TC community per se, but rather, and it is crystal clear what I write there, the power sharing with a settler majority "TC" community. And if you notice, the word TC is placed within inverted commas, simply because we do not consider the current situation or any future situation in which the settlers will constitute a substantial proportion of the "TC" community, as the real, original and authentic Cypriot community, which we have a moral obligation to share power with.

If you do not understand what I am saying, please ask again and I will try to make it more clear to you.

Finally, and this a general remark, a real friend is not the one who always says "Yes" to you, or someone who always says to you whatever you like to hear and thus makes you believe that you are always correct in all your decisions or actions. A real friend is the one who can sometimes say "No" to you or point out your wrong doings and even argue with you when it is appropriate.

[brother]

Kifeas wrote

Finally, and this a general remark, a real friend is not the one who always says "Yes" to you, or someone who always says to you whatever you like to hear and thus makes you believe that you are always correct in all your decisions or actions. A real friend is the one who can sometimes say "No" to you or point out your wrong doings and even argue with you when it is appropriate.

You see i am that person, i listen a lot and tell it as it is but i find that as i do not toe the official line i am never popular or in certain cases threatened, but never the less the way i am is the way i will always be.
When i see certain people going overboard i feel it my moral duty to step up and say something, like when i see someone being racially attacked i get involved, why you may ask, well i hate injustice, i hate persecution and i hate racism, these are fundementrals of my character but the one thing you will not find in me is someone who plays games.

[Kifeas]

Alexandros,
Why are you in the business of spoiling the game of that considerable lunatic and big-time asshole, so-called American congressman, who literary told us yesterday that Papadopoullos wants to get reed of as many settlers as possible, because he doesn't want to share power with them? Don't you know that the current American administrations vision of a solution is for the 670,000 GCs with 3,500 years of history in Cyprus, to make a federation and share power with a settler majority "TC" community, because it is the best formula for Turkey to have permanent political control all over Cyprus?

I will be surprised if you respond to this posting of mine!

Why wouldn't I respond?

For some reason I got the impression that you are a bit reluctant to exert criticism towards some aspects of American politics regarding the Cyprus problem. However it might just be coincidental or a pure misconception, therefore you may just ignore it.

[boulio]

Alexandros,

Outstanding job,excellent work and congratulations to you and your collegues for carring out such extensive research.Very suprising intital results of your survey i might add espescially the answers on certain issues by the t/c community.the sample of t/c you questionded seem very willing to comprimise on issues such as security and power sharing that i never thought they would.and the folloeing by both communites was very welcoming:

. Various other improvements to strengthen the social and political cohesion of the newly re-united state were also seen in a positive light by both communities – for instance, arrangements to encourage the development of bicommunal schools, bicommunal business ventures and bicommunal political parties, a unified teaching of the recent history of Cyprus in all the schools of the island, the direct administration of archeologically and environmentally sensitive areas by the Federal Government, provisions for the closer co-ordination of the two constituent states on matters related to trade, industry and tourism, and others.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas wrote

Finally, and this a general remark, a real friend is not the one who always says "Yes" to you, or someone who always says to you whatever you like to hear and thus makes you believe that you are always correct in all your decisions or actions. A real friend is the one who can sometimes say "No" to you or point out your wrong doings and even argue with you when it is appropriate.

You see i am that person, i listen a lot and tell it as it is but i find that as i do not toe the official line i am never popular or in certain cases threatened, but never the less the way i am is the way i will always be.
When i see certain people going overboard i feel it my moral duty to step up and say something, like when i see someone being racially attacked i get involved, why you may ask, well i hate injustice, i hate persecution and i hate racism, these are fundementrals of my character but the one thing you will not find in me is someone who plays games.

Brother,
When we say that we cannot accept the remaining of such a big number of settlers or that the majority of them must live back to Turkey, it is not because we hate those people or because we are anti-Turkish or racists, per se. The prime reason, aside from the fact the less the number of settlers the more the amount of GC properties to be re-instated, is the notion of subsidising them politically, together with the rest of the indigenous TC community.

If we have a TC community which at the moment is essentially sharing power with the mainland Turkish settlers, and I am sure you understand what I mean here, and then we have a solution in which the GC community is going to share power with the TC community, indirectly but in essence, is like we are asking the GC community to share power with the settlers which will constitute a substantial amount of the TC voting (political) power. I tried to make it as simplistic as possible, hoping that you will get the meaning of what I want say.

The TC community is arguing that a solution of the Cyprus problem should guarantee the political equality of the two communities and the sharing of political power. This is a very difficult concept for us to digest because in reality, it is like asking a business partner to invest 82% of the money into a venture, while the other partner will invest the remaining 18% of the money, but on paper -in the partnership constitution, both of them will have to split the shares equally and thus will have an equal decision making power and profit sharing. Do you know many business people in real life that will accept to do such a kind of partnership?

However, due to the historical and current circumstances relating to the Cyprus issue and to the degree at which the GC community has a sense of a moral obligation towards the TC community, the GC community is prepared to consider such an option, to the extend that political equality will not be translated into numerical equality and to the extend that this power sharing formula will not let the state into deadlocks and paralysis.

If we assume that the GC community has a degree of moral obligation towards the TC community, to share political power together, can you or someone else explain to me what moral obligation does the GC community have towards the settlers, in order to be asked by the TC side and Annan to also share with the settlers an equally substantial part it's political power?

Do you understand what is at stake here on this issue?

[suetoniuspaulinus]

Kifeas wrote

Finally, and this a general remark, a real friend is not the one who always says "Yes" to you, or someone who always says to you whatever you like to hear and thus makes you believe that you are always correct in all your decisions or actions. A real friend is the one who can sometimes say "No" to you or point out your wrong doings and even argue with you when it is appropriate.

You see i am that person, i listen a lot and tell it as it is but i find that as i do not toe the official line i am never popular or in certain cases threatened, but never the less the way i am is the way i will always be.
When i see certain people going overboard i feel it my moral duty to step up and say something, like when i see someone being racially attacked i get involved, why you may ask, well i hate injustice, i hate persecution and i hate racism, these are fundementrals of my character but the one thing you will not find in me is someone who plays games.

Do you understand what is at stake here on this issue?

Mr Kifeas

I do not understand

Would you be good enough and explain please ?

[Kifeas]

Kifeas wrote

Finally, and this a general remark, a real friend is not the one who always says "Yes" to you, or someone who always says to you whatever you like to hear and thus makes you believe that you are always correct in all your decisions or actions. A real friend is the one who can sometimes say "No" to you or point out your wrong doings and even argue with you when it is appropriate.

You see i am that person, i listen a lot and tell it as it is but i find that as i do not toe the official line i am never popular or in certain cases threatened, but never the less the way i am is the way i will always be.
When i see certain people going overboard i feel it my moral duty to step up and say something, like when i see someone being racially attacked i get involved, why you may ask, well i hate injustice, i hate persecution and i hate racism, these are fundementrals of my character but the one thing you will not find in me is someone who plays games.

Do you understand what is at stake here on this issue?

Mr Kifeas

I do not understand

Would you be good enough and explain please ?

I am not surprised you do not understand!
Most likely, the reason you do not understand is because you do not want to understand.

[erolz]

When we say that we cannot accept the remaining of such a big number of settlers or that the majority of them must live back to Turkey, it is not because we hate those people or because we are anti-Turkish or racists, per se. The prime reason, aside from the fact the less the number of settlers the more the amount of GC properties to be re-instated, is the notion of subsidising them politically, together with the rest of the indigenous TC community.

So if you were assure than no settler would keep a GC from returniong to their property if they wished and that any economic burden created by settlers as oppsed to 'real' TC would you be able to accept them remiaing in Cyprus?

If we have a TC community which at the moment is essentially sharing power with the mainland Turkish settlers,

The fact is that the settlers are not politicaly (or economicaly) powerful in the north and would not be so in a TCCS. They may be significant in numerical numbers but their power economic or political can clearly be seen by how many goverment posts they hold and how many senior posts they hold in TC businesses.

The TC community is arguing that a solution of the Cyprus problem should guarantee the political equality of the two communities and the sharing of political power. This is a very difficult concept for us to digest because in reality, it is like asking a business partner to invest 82% of the money into a venture, while the other partner will invest the remaining 18% of the money, but on paper -in the partnership constitution, both of them will have to split the shares equally and thus will have an equal decision making power and profit sharing. Do you know many business people in real life that will accept to do such a kind of partnership?

I feel you analogy is flawed. We are not asking for equal share of the profits. We are happy for the profits to be split accoding to the 'share' of each partner. What we are asking for is an equal say in how the business is run (in some issue not all). That is the basis of partnership. What you are asking for is a sleeping partner - one who invests in a business but agrees to have no say or input into how that business is run. We do not want to be (forced) into being a sleeping partner. We do not want more profit that our share relates to but we do want and equal (partner) say in how it is run. There are businesses where the amount invested is different between the partners and the profits are split unequally yet as far as decsion making goes there is some form of equality. Without that equality in how the company is run you are not a partner just an investor.

[Kifeas]

When we say that we cannot accept the remaining of such a big number of settlers or that the majority of them must live back to Turkey, it is not because we hate those people or because we are anti-Turkish or racists, per se. The prime reason, aside from the fact the less the number of settlers the more the amount of GC properties to be re-instated, is the notion of subsidising them politically, together with the rest of the indigenous TC community.

So if you were assure than no settler would keep a GC from returniong to their property if they wished and that any economic burden created by settlers as oppsed to 'real' TC would you be able to accept them remiaing in Cyprus?

Would you have made the same question to me if the issue of settlers was not in terms of 10s of thousands but instead in terms of 100s of thousands of people?

Don't you see that the problem is not only property and financially related but it is also a problem of demographics, citizenship rights and disproportional political subsidisation via the TC community's power sharing status?

Don't you realise that if for GCs the sharing of power with a substantially smaller community is indigestible one time, sharing power with a "TC" community consisting by a high proportion of a foreigner to them element, becomes 10 times more indigestible?

[Kifeas]

If we have a TC community which at the moment is essentially sharing power with the mainland Turkish settlers,

The fact is that the settlers are not politicaly (or economicaly) powerful in the north and would not be so in a TCCS. They may be significant in numerical numbers but their power economic or political can clearly be seen by how many goverment posts they hold and how many senior posts they hold in TC businesses.

The settlers might not be economically powerful, but politically, a vote is a vote. They certainly play a major role on who becomes elected in the north and who does not. And if Turkey chooses to manipulate and direct them towards a certain way, they will be far easier to follow it than the indigenous TCs. At least this is what GCs believe, and there is amble evidence to prove that this belief is not unreasonable.