Cyprus-Forum.com

[nathar]

This is very interesting Michalis, thanks.
I would be mostly obliged if you could provide me with the survey's respective web address.

[nathar]

Dear Piratis please correct me if I am wrong but it seems that you just wanted to confirm your inappropriate vocabulary and luck of diversity of inputs resulting to monotonous and clichés phrases and conclusions
Further do I need to remind you that when joining the present forum you agreed to a decent vocabulary?

[Piratis]

The answer is being given loud and clear.

If you read the survey on the web, it would be very easy for you to post a link for all of us to see who made the survey and what the details are.

I would agree for a future plan called "Annan plan" - meaning that it came from Annan and the UN - as long as it meets my requirements.

You said that 60% would agree for future negotiations based on this plan. This is actually a very low percentage, I would expect a much higher number, around 75%.

Recently they called me from RAI Consultants for a survey and I also said that the Annan plan should be re-negotiated.

According to Michalis, 25% are not fools, but the 75% are. You can call us fools, you can call us whatever you want. If such a plan comes again we will reject it, and you can shout and cry as much as you want!

Nathar, I read the forum rules and I am not braking any of them. I am sorry if you are offended by the "indecent" vocabulary, but there is no decent word to describe such an indecent plan.

[michalis5354]

To be more specific , I read the paper yesterday at Politis newspaper and there was a survey which claimed that 60% of GCs were willing to accept to renegotiate the plan provided some provisions were endorsed such as the strong commitment by both parties to endorsed fully the provisions of the plan , no guarantor countries etc. It is not a specific website but just an article in greek. The link on this newspaper though it is not in english and the article was published yesterday is www.politis.com.cy.

I did not say that 75% of GCs are Fools I think you misinterpreted what I said ! What I said was that the 75% of GCs who voted against the plan , not all considered the plan to be a nightamre as you make it to be , although I dont deny that there is a group of people who claim that it is a nightmare.

I think I have the right to express my own opinion as you have the right here to express yours. Otherwise this forum would be a boring forum and there is no need for future discussions.

Do I have such a right or not?

If anyone ivestigates the trend of public opinion at the time the Annan plan was firstly announced until the 24th April . It is interesting to see that although initially the outcomes of surveyes were marginal 50%-50% there were also surveys where the Yes voters were well above the No voters by time and gradyally the percenatge of Yes votes has declined especially when Papadopoulos was elected and reach a minimum of 25% at the 24 April. It is very interesting to try and explain such a trend and there are many reasons behind.

[nathar]

Dear friend Piratis
Michalis, so far did not informed us of the survey's web address if he does in the future I will be more than glad to update you. (fantastic while I was answering Michalis post an answer above and the link for the survey is there so please help yourself)
Nobody ever said at least via my post that either the "no" or "yes" voters are fouls
We all acted according to our criteria with reference to the inputs and personal opinion formed, and everybody's opinion is respected at least as far as I am concerned
I enjoy dialogues based on cool and polite terms without anger and irreconcilable attitude.
So far the way you reply reflect an angry and a shouting interlocutor
A dialogue is supposed to be profitable and not a dead end
Nobody is looking fwd to celebrate, shout or cry
We are supposed to be ready to face any result and try and get the best out of it as long as there is realism, maturity, strategy and good will behind it.

[nathar]

Thanks for the survey's link
It seems we have chosen the same time to be online
I couldn't agree less with what you say and I put the questions hereabove as to get different opinions, discuss them with good will and eventually arrive to a conclusion as to what we want, how much we can get and how we can get them
It is very true that there were changes in the voters climate
Explanations vary according to what each one believes as right
Unfortunately a lot of irreconcilability is still there so you can not have too many constructive dialogues
We are at a crossroad and hopefully the international political game is not over
It is obvious that nobody ever explain to us that we have to learn to play in an international field and sometimes if not most of the times the rules will be applied and not chosen
The rules will be fair for all the players , not in favour of each one separately and most of the time in favour of the stronger and more influencial players resulting to occasional justified but unavoidable disappointments..........
Obviously we can not be happy all at the same time...........
Suggestion open to comments:
Our leaders should choose always the best game aiming to a score that will lead us cleverly enough as to manage that our interests sail together with the interests of the stronger teams
Such actions might give an answer and get us acquainted with the realistic aspect of our problem

[Piratis]

Michalis, when the Annan plan first appeared very few people bother to sit and read it. Very few discussions on TV and radio where contacted for the specifics of the plan. The majority of people simply didn’t know many details about this plan. Also, If you read those old polls a bit more carefully only a very small percentage accepted the plan as it is. The rest either said that they do not accept it, or that they would be willing to accept it if the necessary and important changes where implemented.

Before the referendum we had a final plan. We could either take it or leave it. We all got bored of listening to both the “yes” and “no” supporters. They showed them so many times that in the end they were simply repeating themselves because they had nothing more to say. People listened to everybody and took their decisions. You might not agree, but you have to respect the choice of the majority.
In the referendum there was either a “yes” or a “no” vote. People could not vote for the option “yes, if necessary changes are implemented” because such an option didn’t exist. This explains why the “yes” (which actually was a “yes if…”) dropped so much, and it also explains why many people are willing to accept re-negotiations of this plan.

Nathar, I just say my opinion. I try to explain my position as much as possible and I believe I am clear. I do try to put solid proposals and I am willing to move ahead with them if there is an agreement on the main principles. Words like: “realism, maturity, strategy and good will” sound nice, but if they are not followed by some solid suggestions and proposals that can put those things in action then they are nothing more than empty words.

[Piratis]

if you are referring to polls after April 24th, then in no poll I saw the "yes" vote was more then 20%. The only exception is maybe the politis newspaper, and if this is the case then it tells something about the reliability of the newspaper.

[nathar]

Friend Piratis I am sure that if our leaders spent as much time on the matter as we do the problem would have been solved long time ago
Nevertheless, It is very true that people got confused, because the discusions were noisy and shouting and turned to a pre elections climate which was not the case and was the worse that could happen
What is done is done, what can we do from here?
Realism:
Never mind our proud history we are still a small island
Our interests work with reference to the interests of others in the international community and we should take advantage of them
Recognise our mistakes since 1960 in this particular field
Justice and injustice when come to politics is not black and white
The timing of pressures for a solution came with political coincidences and not out of love or for justice
EE does not want our problem and the best it can give us is a second chance on the same plan with hopefully additional assurances or leave things as they are letting the north grow and improve creating it own personality
Maturity:
Get the indispensable lessons out of it
Strategy:
Stop playing around and try to sail together with the interests of EE and all strong members of the international community
Lets use our best diplomacy to persuade our yesterday's friends to give us a second chance and then within Europe and with good will to try and improve the negative aspects of the solution and at the same time improve more the positive aspects.
Good Will:
Give a chance, cooperate, trust think positively

Political solutions is a compromise and hard solutions.

Not enough, then estimate your strength, proceed and go to war
Either you win and regain everything including justice or you lose and gain nothing a nothing that you cannot call injustice................

[Piratis]

the best it can give us is a second chance on the same plan

instead of what? current status? or instead of partition? So we have 3 alternatives?:
1)Annan plan
2)current status
3)Partition

Even if this is the case, I would prefer current status or "standard" partition instead of Annan plan partition.

We should work for a solution that will work for Cypriots (no need to post link again). Not possible? Then we continue current status until the balance of power will be a bit more on our side. Not possible? Standard partition.