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What we urgently need?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

What do we urgently need?

A bi-comunal political party
0
No votes
A big demonstration against corrupt politicians
2
18%
A strong bi-communal movement based on justice and human rights
9
82%
Nothing
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 11

What we urgently need?

Postby insan » Sat May 08, 2004 1:23 pm

"we are going to be connected to Europe" was meaning a lot for TCs who were isolated from the world and exploited by ex-RoC regime and Denktash regime for more than 40 years...

Under these circumstances, CTP, BDH and their supporters think that reunification of the island is just a tool of ending the isolation of TCs and less control of Turkey... and in long terms, no control of Turkey... It depends on GCs attitudes against TCs... and of coarse it depends on status-quoers provocative actions too... if they do the same things which they had done in late 50s, 60s and early 70s; this will give a chance to mainland opportunist self-seekers to put pressure on government and army to intervene either diplamaticaly or militarily...

But I believe that modern, humanist, democratic Cypriots are stronger than the evil-minded nationalists of both sides... If all of the positive powers of Cyprus be able to organize under the same framework, they can easily overcome of every problem in an unified Cyprus...

I don't know how this joint organisation of the positive powers will come true... It seems CTP and BDH don't trust AKEL anymore or at least they don't trust the leadership of AKEL. They totally don't like the Papadopluos and DIKO policies.... They obliged to come together with DESI leader Anastasiades for "yes" propaganda...

I think most of the GC political parties have similar feelings and thoughts against at least CTP because their relations with Turkey, US and one-sided accusations which have arised from their "no" votes to Annan Plan...

I've told it before... Our politicians are not capable to shape a good future for us... and our ropes are in their hands... Even the civil initiatives are their propaganda machines...



So urgently what we need is:
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Postby Piratis » Sat May 08, 2004 2:42 pm

reunification of the island is just a tool of ending the isolation of TCs and less control of Turkey


Plus entry to the EU, direct financial support etc.

This is why I said that TC didn't make any real compromises with Annan plan. They simply gave up some ground, receiving on the other hand recognition of their separate entity, more freedom from Turkey, EU membership, and lots of financial benefits. The return of some ground (that is not recognized as their own in the first place) was a very cheap price to pay for all those benefits. This is why so many TCs where excited with the Annan plan. Because they gave so little and they would receive so much. In a true compromise were the value of what you give up is equal to the value of what you recieve, nobody is that excited.

While many TC, probably including you, truly wanted the solution because of peace and re-unification, the majority of TC would be even happier if they could get all those benefits without peace and return of any land to us.

I like your 3rd option in the poll, but I doubt many would support such movement since human rights etc do not seem to be a motive for many.
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Postby metecyp » Sat May 08, 2004 4:30 pm

This is why so many TCs where excited with the Annan plan. Because they gave so little and they would receive so much. In a true compromise were the value of what you give up is equal to the value of what you recieve, nobody is that excited.

Well, according to you, TCs cannot compromise at all!! First of all, no matter how much land TCs give up, that's not a compromise because the land isn't legally theirs anyway. No matter how many Turkish soldiers leave the island, that's not a compromise because they were not supposed to be on the island anyway. No matter how many settlers are sent back to Turkey, it doesn't matter, that's not a compromise because they were not supposed to be on the island. TCs gave up on their TRNC, but that's not a compromise because it wasn't technically a state anyway. 1/3 of TCs being refugees by the Annan plan is not a compromise either since these people shouldn't be occupying GC houses in the first place. Do you want me to keep counting??

So what can TCs give that can be considered compromise? I guess if TCs give up their legal rights in RC, then that would be a compromise. Is that what you want?
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Postby Piratis » Sat May 08, 2004 4:51 pm

Because they gave so little and they would receive so much.


I said "so little" I didn't say "nothing" did i?

But yes, when you compromise for something you don't own is much easier.

If tomorrow Greece brings here 20.000 soldiers and the next day they leave, can we say that this was a compromise? If we claim that we own Turkey, and then "agree" than we don't own it, is this a compromise?

So yes, the return of some ground was the one and only compromise that TC made. But if we count that they do not legally own any of that land, and by giving up a small part they would legalize all the rest, then yes - this was a very small compromise compared with what they get.

As I said before: In a true compromise were the value of what you give up is equal to the value of what you receive, nobody is that excited.
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Postby metecyp » Sat May 08, 2004 5:24 pm

As I said before: In a true compromise were the value of what you give up is equal to the value of what you receive, nobody is that excited.

OK then. Tell me what you would consider a true compromise from TCs because I really have difficult time trying to find what TCs can compromise according to your standards.
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Postby Piratis » Sat May 08, 2004 6:12 pm

The main compromise is to accept a true federation.
At the component state level, you are the majority in your own state. But in federations there is a strong central government also, and for Cyprus as a whole you have to accept that TC are a minority. (with guarantied representation and veto on important matters).

Here in a bit more detail:
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=211

If you think about it, such a solution is not your dream solution and you will not feel like supporting it with as much excitement as you supported the Annan plan. But when the times comes to vote for it, you will vote “yes”. This will be the case with most TC (excluding settles) and GC. Nobody will be too excited, but the majorities will vote for it. This is how true compromises are.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Sun May 09, 2004 4:08 pm

Wow, 100% agreement so far in the poll.
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Postby nathar » Sun May 09, 2004 7:40 pm

Come on Piratis please
Do grow up
Tell us something new
You are just repeating yourself
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Postby Piratis » Mon May 10, 2004 12:31 am

Nathar, at least I have an opinion and I am probably the only one who gives proposals. The reason that these proposals are not developed further is that some others, including you, just prefer to make useless posts like the one above.

It is easy to simply ask questions and make offensive comments.

Why don't you instead reply to my "not new" proposals and explain where you agree, where you don't and say something more contractive?
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Postby nathar » Mon May 10, 2004 2:52 pm

My opinion on the matter is expressed via relevant personal posts.
My opinion is there and I am open to civilized comments not virtual "anger" "shouting" and insulting vocabulary
I ask questions exactly for the same reason:
I want to hear others
I want others to assist me to understand better what they think, what they propose, what influences the public opinion to discover the public vision and then form a more or less optimistic picture for the forseenable future of our country
And who knows we might even work for a better future, our future
What else is more constructive?
Sorry if you consider my comments as offensive I was just honest
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