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I'm So Confused...

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby mehmet » Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:04 pm

it's very conveniant to keep talking about Annan Plan being a US plan, by doing so you can unite both nationalist and anti-capitalist points of view in your denunciiation. But hold on, Papadopoulos was invited to negotiate wasn't he? Just as Denktas was. Maybe not you but others on this forum keep mixing up US and UN, if they was the same the UN wouldn't be in crisis because US disregard world opinion to invade Iraq. By the way I'm just as anti-american as anyone and thye aren't my allies. That doesn't mean I will disagree with them for the sake of it. If occasionally they agree with me I'm not going to change my mind either. We are the ones with all these powerful allies? If you compare Turkish Cypriot's to the stat of Israel how can you be serious about that. After all, there are UN resolutins against Israel too but look at the support they get from US. In comparision TRNC is only recognised by Turkey and Greek American lobby is more effective than Turkish American lobby. So who has the allies? Us who have no support internationally or Greek Cypriots who have succeeded in continuing the economic sanctions against Turkish Cypriots that began not in 1974 but in 1963. I ask you something, would you be prepared to trade allies seeing as you think we have strong support?

I know why you are against Annan Plan, I follow you're arguements for some months now. While Papadopoulos sit on his hands I don't think you can point your finger at Talat. When Paadopoulos present some proposals to move situation forward, and when Talat rejects, maybe then you can accuse Turkish Cypriots of being against reunification.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:19 pm

What do I want? (In reply to Metecyps question)

1.I want a Unitary bi-regional State.I don't want a Federative State because for every 3 people we will have 2 working to feed 1 lazy Government employee.I want the Tcs to be the majority in their living region so that we are protected from their lunatics/extremists/fanatics, and they are protected from our lunatics/extremists/fanatics.
2.I want 100% respect of everyones human rights on his properties, on movement, on settlement etc.To achieve bi-regionality the property committee described in the Anan Plan must deal ONLY with exchange of approximately equal properties.The State must help with long term loans so that most TC properties get exchanged with GC ones.Forget about stupid clauses for 1/3(!!!) regaining, 2/3 expropriating on properties as per Anan Plan because this is fascism.
3.The 2 regions must be approximately 18-82% in size.
4.I want the TCs to have 100% individual rights and 18% Political rights with rotation on all ALL Political positions including the Presidency (one out of 5 terms the President must be a TC one out of 5 Terms the Minister of Foreign affairs a TC , one fifth of the judges, of the Police etc must be TCs. All Government employees in the TC region to be TCs
5.I want the troops to be limited to 6000 (Greek/Turkish) in 29 months as per Anan Plan and their role to be agreed in EVERY DETAIL.And slowly slowly to be limited to zero.
6.I want my safety to be relied on EU+UN troops if necessary.No Greek,no Turkish,no British, no Nato troops, no interbvention rights.
7.I don't want the British to have sea shell rights(page 151 of Anan Plan)
8.I want all the settlers to leave, except those who got married with TCs or those born here.I don't want the settlers who are here the last 7 years (as per Anan plan) to stay.I want to have a list of the settlers who will stay and a list of those who will leave.
9.I don't want any settler who will leave to vote at the referendum.
10.I want all development budgets of the new Unitary State plus all aid coming from the EU to be spend in the areas where the TCs will live so that their Standard of living equalises the soonest possible.
11.I want the Greek and Turkish Languages to be obligatory taught at all schools as per Anan Plan, the reconcilliation committee to be formed as per Anan Plan, and ALL books used at public schools to be written by Cypriots.
12.I hate the idea of the Anan Plan that in addition to the common flag we will have also another 2 flags and another 2 anthems.I want ONE flag for ALL Cyprus and ONE National Anthem.

Thats what I want!!!

Kalinihta sas-Iyi Geceler-Good night
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Postby Piratis » Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:03 am

Mehmet,
Do you think the UN can go directly against the interests of the US? If I was the the general secretary of the UN I would resign after what happened in Iraq. It is obvious that after the end of the cold war the US do whatever they want just by giving cheap excuses.

And I want to make it clear that the alie of the US is Turkey, and not Turkish Cypriots. For the US we are just "peanuts", they don't care to have us as alies, especially when they have the British bases here.

So, while Iraq was invaded for invading Kuwait, and invaded again when the US found another (less convincing) excuse, Israel (occupation of Palestine, murdering of innocents, nuclear weapons) and Turkey (occupation of Cyprus, Kurds, human rights) are not only left alone to do whatever they feel like, they are also supported financially and with weapons.

I don't think anybody can doubt that Turkey and Israel are the top US alies along with UK. Why do you think the US and UK want Turkey to enter the EU so much?
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Postby Piratis » Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:18 am

What I want and what I believe can be achieved are 2 different things. I wrote many times what I believe can be achieved, I will not repeat that.

What I want is to live in a country that is as democratic as possible (our small size is a big plus for that). Where language, religion, race etc do not matter and everybody has equal rights and responsibilities. Where the law is above everything and respected. Minimum crime and corruption and a strong economy. A state that cares for all people and not for the few (socialist). Excellent educational system for everybody for every age. A country where the people will not necessarily be the richest, but among the happiest, peaceful, cultured and educated in the world :)

But I guess I am asking for too much...
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Postby metecyp » Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:14 am

Ok. I haven't heard anything new from your posts, mainly because I haven't asked anything new. So here's another question which I hope will bring new ideas on the table.

The question is the following. What do you want TCs do right now? TCs moved from two seperate states to Annan plan type federation in the last 3-4 years. They challenged the structure in the north, and they proved with 65% that they want a united Cyprus rather than two seperate states. Most of you might not agree that TCs made any compromises, but TCs did make huge compromises by accepting 1/3 of their population to be refugees, accepting 40.000 soldiers to reduce to 650 and so on.

So I'm asking you. What do you want/expect/hope from TCs now? What do you want them to realize (if there's anything to realize)? What do you want them to think about the big GC NO to the Annan plan?

For example, since GCs said NO to the plan, do GCs expect TCs to beg for a solution, or go back to RC, or something else?

And please try to answer these questions representing the whole GC community rather that your personal opinions. I'm just trying to understand the expectations from the south so I can have a better picture of what the problem is.
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"equal rights"

Postby Oneness » Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:46 am

If you wish the average GC opinion, why not read online paper like Cyprus Mail or Cyprus Weekly?

Mehmet, why do you say economic sanctions against Turkish Cypriots that began not in 1974 but in 1963.

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Regarding a key constitutional issue, TC's wish for equal rights as a ethnic group while GC want equal rights as individuals :

I share your (above) vision Piratis. It may not be a dream but I do not think it can all happen overnight. Not every wish can be expected in a settlement. However, some wishes may be realised many years later. "Good things come to those who wait", a famous beer ad goes. You cannot make a good wine from this years harvest. You cannot force these things, they evolve slowly.

The fact is that TCs and GCs were moving apart until recent years. In the interest of greater long terms good, I believe GC demands for equal individual rights and unitary state are counter prodctive demands. TC's feel strongly on this issue. It may not be a normal request but then this is not a normal situation! It is unique! In my opinion, it is a justified request if you recognise that TC's, rightly or wrongly, perceive themselves being vulnerable. To some extent, modern Cyprus history (especially, since 1963) has justified that feeling. Denying TC's of protection results in jeopardy of common Cypriot identity and many of them looking to Turkey for protection! Have the lessones of enosis / taksim been learnt?!?

Of course, it is unfortunate that TC's want equal political rights with federation because firstly, it means unequal individual rights and, secondly, it confirms the reality of two people who have moved apart as separate ethnicities. 50% - 50% is too far but I do not think a GC / TC balance of 70% / 30 % (despite population of 80% / 18%) is unreasonable. While we dream of GC and TC being united, it is a fact that, like their island, they are divided. I do not mean territorially but ethnically. The common Cypriot identity has suffered terribly the past 40 years while the (seemingly) incompatible Greek / Turkish elements have temporarily soared.

A federation is not necessarily a permanent state of affairs. MiccAtCyp pointed out the ridiculous expense of it. If after 10 - 20 years, TC and GC have shown they can work together, perhaps they will be reverting to a unitary state. By contrast, other areas of negotiation may irreversible / permanent outcome, such as property rights and Turkish troops and colonists and are, in my opinion, more important. In my opinion, TC political rights is one area where we should "give" in order that we can "take".

it is a fact that recent troubled history has made Cypriots more distinguished along ethnic Turco / Greco lines. Therefore, I think TC's are not unjustified in their demands in this special situation.
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Postby Piratis » Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:32 pm

So I'm asking you. What do you want/expect/hope from TCs now? What do you want them to realize (if there's anything to realize)? What do you want them to think about the big GC NO to the Annan plan?


Since you want an answer that will cover most Cypriots I can not give a very specific answer since the details vary according to the person you ask. But this general answer covers more than 60% of GC.

We want TC to realize that we accept bi-communal federation and that we truly want a solution, but we will not accept just any solution that claims to be bi-communal federation. We know what federation is, and we can’t be tricked. You have to realize that Annan plan crossed way beyond our “red line” and that no pressure or threads will change our opinion. The only way to accept the Annan plan (or another plan) is if it stops before this “red line”.

The above also answers to what TC should think about the big NO. That we are ready to compromise for a bi-communal federation, but we are not willing to accept just any solution. No solution is better than a bad solution – this is what the big “no” means.

From Turkish Cypriots we expect/want/hope that they will take advantage of the time from now until December and make their peaceful revolution. To declare to the world that they do not want the Turkish troops to be permanent in Cyprus either, and that they do not consider the settlers as Cypriots and they should therefore be excluded from the decision process in the north. The Turkish influence and the settlers(at big numbers) are a plaque for north Cyprus and they will became a plaque for the whole Cyprus if those problems are not solved before solution is found.
Once the TC are liberated from Turkey and settlers control then a solution will be found easily because now we will only have to satisfy the needs of TC and not the needs of Turkey and settlers as well.


If you wish the average GC opinion, why not read online paper like Cyprus Mail or Cyprus Weekly?


What makes you think that the average GC opinion is represented by those two newspapers. Most newspapers support specific ideas and they try to influence people rather than simply reflecting what the majority of people believe.
Also, those two papers don’t sell a lot. If you want to get a better idea you would have to read big independent newspapers like Philelephtheros (the biggest in Cyprus), but that one is in Greek only.
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Postby michalis5354 » Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:50 pm

I agree that the most appropriate solution will be a bi communal Federation and not a unitary state .

For many the UN Annan plan has been interpreted as a Federal UN plan. It is obvious here that many interprete Federation in different terms. Belgium as well is a federation. So we should be specific on what we mean by Federation. Federation as UN Kofi Annan means sharing power and no one dominates the other. This is fair to me and I do not see where the problem is ! As far as I can understand some GCs do not consider Federation and sharing the power satisfactory and thats one of the reasons that I can explain this significant rejection of the plan.

Besides that internationally there are many successful federal countries that are operating and functiong very well. On the other hand there are many Fail unitary states that fail to achieve individual rights and freedom. I hope I am clear what I mean.

What is more Federation has also been also agreed that will be the basis for a future settlement according to the aggreements in 1977-1999.
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Re: "equal rights"

Postby mehmet » Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:09 pm

Mehmet, why do you say economic sanctions against Turkish Cypriots that began not in 1974 but in 1963.

----------

Oneness, I begin toanswer that question by pointing out that after the crisis of 1963-4 527 houses in 109 villages had been destroyed and 2000 damaged. Apart from losses incurred by agriculture and industry the salaries of 4,000 people who worked for the governement or for Greek Cypriot employers was lost. In some cases this was due to the fear of Turkish Cypriots to leave their enclaves to travel to work in Greek Cypriot areas. The incidents in this period made 25,000 refugees, thus causing unemployment for large sections of the Turkish Cypriot population.

Then there was the governments measures to punish the Turkish Cypriot politicians for opposing changes to the constituion. I quote 'economic sanctions, unlike the deaths caused by military confrontations, would not offer a justification for Turkish intervention'. The Un and the Red Cross convinced Makarios that his policy of starving the Turkish Cypriots would damn hin in the eyes of the world. He then granted permission for a lsit of essential foodstuffs, based on calorific minimum, to be brought to the besieged (by RoC forces) Turkish Cypriot enclaves.

There are the following specific measures;

until March 1968, the RoC prohibited the importation of 'strategic materials' into the enclaves. These restrictions affected all building activity and indurstrial production.

the enclaves were surrounded and road blocks set up. the official purpose was to prevent the smuggling of arms and war material into the enclaves. but they became a means by which to harass the Turkish Cypriots and further restrict their economic activity. A representative of the UN stated at the time that there were 'too many cases of close bodily searches and lengthy interrogations which did not appear to be justified by the need to look for arms and strategic materials.' According to one journalist 'at some roadblocks in which their cargo were fruits and vegetables were unloaded on the ground and sometimes damagfed beyond use'.

the RoC imposed a 20% tak on the grain sold by the Grain Commission as 'compensation for Greek land under Turkish cultivation'.

in December 1963 the RoC stopped paying social insurance benefits to Turkish Cypriots

I could go on quoting from books that detailed the condition of Turkish Cypriots between 1963-74 but it I will stop. Some of the measures are similar to the actions of the Israeli state towards Arabs who it considers threating the unity of hteir state. Today the condition of Arabs in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank is one of economic dependance on donors. Anyway, I hope the point is made that Greek Cypriot actions to affect the economic prosperity of Turkish Cypriots. If you add to that the immigration from Cyprus (including most of my family) to UK and Austrailia as a consequence of being unable to survive economically within RoC the situation is worse.

I hope those who are loyal to RoC and 1960 Constitution will understand why Turkish Cypriots have no desire to 'return' to RoC and why a solution needs to be freshly negotiated and one that better protects the rights of minority to live within a safe and secure state enjoying all the freedoms and human rights Piratis has described.
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Postby mehmet » Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:58 pm

Piratis wrote:Mehmet,
Do you think the UN can go directly against the interests of the US? If I was the the general secretary of the UN I would resign after what happened in Iraq. It is obvious that after the end of the cold war the US do whatever they want just by giving cheap excuses.

So when do you think the UN and US interests merged. After all, didn't Makarios fall out with Greek colonels because he was pro UN involvement in Cyprus rather than support role of Britain and Turkey to guarantee 1960 constitution. That's why we have UNFICYP from 1964 trying to keep peace. I agree since cold war US do what it likes, that's not the fault of the UN. The US is responsible for UN being in crisis, that doesn't mean that everything done by UN (including Annan Plan) is done for US interests. Maybe you would resign rather than carry on as General Secretary. If I thought resigning would make a difference I would too, but it wont.


And I want to make it clear that the alie of the US is Turkey, and not Turkish Cypriots. For the US we are just "peanuts", they don't care to have us as alies, especially when they have the British bases here.

Yes, I agree that the curse of Cyprus is its geographical position between Christian, Islamic and Jewish countries. If Cyprus was in the middle of Atlantic ocean no one would give a shit about our ethnic tensions.

So, while Iraq was invaded for invading Kuwait, and invaded again when the US found another (less convincing) excuse, Israel (occupation of Palestine, murdering of innocents, nuclear weapons) and Turkey (occupation of Cyprus, Kurds, human rights) are not only left alone to do whatever they feel like, they are also supported financially and with weapons.

You equate Turkey with Israel but there were no Jews in West Bank and Gaza until after they conquer territory, whereas as a reaction to Enosis Turkish Cypriots look to Turkey for protection.

I don't think anybody can doubt that Turkey and Israel are the top US alies along with UK. Why do you think the US and UK want Turkey to enter the EU so much?


Yes, I understand that Turkey's position next to Soviet Union made it important ally of US. Now it's because it is next ot Iran, Iraq and Syria that it is valued by US. Turkish state after WW2 made a choice to join NATO because it feared rise of Soviet Union. Greece went through a civil war (Grivas was involved in this attack on left wing partisans. He didn't mind support from US and UK then).

Whilst ideally it would be good for Cypriots to be able to make decisions irrespective of outside interests I don't believe that will be allowed to happen. Anyway there are too many Cypriots (from both communities) that were happy for outsiders from Turkey and Greece to have a say in Cypriot politics. I congratulate Greek Cypriots if they have decided they and not Greece is in charge of their aspirations and Turkish Cypriots recently have shown that they too are moving in the same direction. That doesn't necessarily mean they are moving towards each other. That's why we need wise politicians who will lead form the front instead of follow from behind. Because during the 40 years of separation we didn't learn to respect each other when we went to school or to consider the feelings of the other community.

Peace and reconciliation wont come on its own, there needs to emerge leaders who will push agenda forward. Mr No is not interested in this. that is my conclusion. He had quite an important role to play in the past so maybe that's not surprising. It's the same with Denktas, you wont find answers form him.
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