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I'm So Confused...

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Oneness » Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:05 am

Quote:
If you wish the average GC opinion, why not read online paper like Cyprus Mail or Cyprus Weekly?


Yes, CW has problems. Yes, there are too often foreign journalists representing the opinion of the US or UN! But there is no easy way to get the average GC opinion except to read Phileleftheros and Simerini and Machi and ...

That's why I made several polls on the issues today.
Last edited by Oneness on Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby michalis5354 » Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:47 pm

mehmet wrote:. That's why we need wise politicians who will lead form the front instead of follow from behind. Because during the 40 years of separation we didn't learn to respect each other when we went to school or to consider the feelings of the other community.


Exactly. If enough willingness had been exercised from both sides the problem could have been solved. Not enough initiatives are there. Not enough willingness to solve the problem and to move forward.


As long as we agreed that the solution will be based on bi communal federation what stops both leaders of preparing their own Federal Plans and proposed them to the UN. What we need right now are strong initiatives to move forward . Why do they both meet at a social statues and not as a President of ROC and Prime Minister of TRNC If they do not aggree on that but as leaders of both communities.

Since we know the framwork of the future solutions why do they not propose alternative Federal Plans and propose them to the UN. Neither side had done so . Such plans would satisfy cypriots interest , fears and concerns and not Foreigners as this had been accused. What is more USA and UN I am sure they would welcome such approach and will accept much less critism of fulfilling their own interest. Thats where the problem lies. Since there are No initiatives to move forward someone will take these initiatives for owr behalf.
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Postby insan » Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:29 pm

michalis5354 wrote:
mehmet wrote:. That's why we need wise politicians who will lead form the front instead of follow from behind. Because during the 40 years of separation we didn't learn to respect each other when we went to school or to consider the feelings of the other community.


Exactly. If enough willingness had been exercised from both sides the problem could have been solved. Not enough initiatives are there. Not enough willingness to solve the problem and to move forward.


As long as we agreed that the solution will be based on bi communal federation what stops both leaders of preparing their own Federal Plans and proposed them to the UN. What we need right now are strong initiatives to move forward . Why do they both meet at a social statues and not as a President of ROC and Prime Minister of TRNC If they do not aggree on that but as leaders of both communities.

Since we know the framwork of the future solutions why do they not propose alternative Federal Plans and propose them to the UN. Neither side had done so . Such plans would satisfy cypriots interest , fears and concerns and not Foreigners as this had been accused. What is more USA and UN I am sure they would welcome such approach and will accept much less critism of fulfilling their own interest. Thats where the problem lies. Since there are No initiatives to move forward someone will take these initiatives for owr behalf.



I agree with you michalis5354...

Can you say majority of Cypriots are agree with you as well? If yes, why don't they go make a demonstration, protest them and demand early election?

It seems to me that majority of Cypriots are not agree with us... What I'm trying to do is spreading my thoughts to the majority of Cypriots in order to achieve my(our) goal. Am I succesful on that? Definitely NO. Would I give up struggling to spread my thoughts to masses? Definitely NO.


You can't change the world but you may change points of view
When you change points of view, you can change the things
And when you change the things, you can change the world...

Regards :)
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Postby Piratis » Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:10 pm

As long as we agreed that the solution will be based on bi communal federation what stops both leaders of preparing their own Federal Plans and proposed them to the UN.


"bicommunal federation" is two words. It is apparent that we do not agree at all how this bi-communal federation should be implemented. As I said many times the Annan plan creates just an association between two separate states, and not a federation - in other words partition.
Then we have Talad, that rejects any discussions and he insists that the Annan plan should be accepted. So with whom are GC going to talk with and prepare federal plans?

Can you say majority of Cypriots are agree with you as well? If yes, why don't they go make a demonstration, protest them and demand early election?

It seems to me that majority of Cypriots are not agree with us...

Michalis views do not represent the majority. They do not even represent the views of all people that voted "yes" in the referendum.
If we had early elections Papadopoulos would win with bigger difference. His popularity is around 80% right now, and his opponents that supported "yes" severely weakened due to their choice.

The truth is that the great majority of GC agree with Papadopoulos:
The Annan plan can not be accepted as it is.
There are some critical matters which are "red-lines" for us, and at a minimum these critical matters should be satisfied before we reconsider the plan.

We might not all agree with the way he handled things in the negotiations, but the great majority agrees with him as to what an acceptable solution should be like.
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Postby michalis5354 » Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:21 pm

Piratis wrote:
"bicommunal federation" is two words. It is apparent that we do not agree at all how this bi-communal federation should be implemented. As I said many times the Annan plan creates just an association between two separate states, and not a federation - in other words partition.


I do not think that the Annan plan creates an association between two independent states and this is a big example how the UN plan has being misinformed , manipulated and wrongly interpreted. This is what also Alvaro De soto accused the GC side of not presenting the UN plan in an objective truly way. Once he had asked the Media to allow him to intervene and to intrperete the real provisions of the UN plan to the public and the authorities had refused him to do such action on the grounds that he would affect the public opinion . WHo was going to minsisnform the public opinion ? The person who was directly involved on its implementation ? and an officer of UN ? or all those suddenly who appeared as big lawyers and big economist and who had no idea about economics and law.

All the GC parties initially had accepted the original version of the UN plan as a basis for further negotiations and improvements this directly mean that the initial framework of the UN plan had been accepted otherwise they ought to had rejected it from the start. The reason the some extraordinary provisions of the UN 5 plan are there it is because Papadopoulos was not willing to negotiate further the UN plan in switserland. It is very tragic that Denktash and Papadopoulos agreed in New york that the Anan plan as it is had no chance of being accepted!

Federation for me means one thing ! It means sharing power so that no community dominates the other. Federation is much more appropriate in nowadays than unitary states. It allows all views to be heard and therefore one sided events are avoided.

Neither having a Federation or even a confederation is a bad framework. Just look internationally and see what countries have Democracy , freedom , human Rights and prosperity . These are more likely to operate as a Federation or confederation.

Then we have Talad, that rejects any discussions and he insists that the Annan plan should be accepted. So with whom are GC going to talk with and prepare federal plans?


Why Papadopoulos does not construct his own vesrion of a Federal Plan and propose this to the UN?This does not necessarily mean that he need to aggre with Talats plan but it would be a more constructive approach rather than sitting back and anticipating while so valuable time is being wasted for nothing!


I do not need to agree with the majority of people . Whether I am a minority or a majority does not underestimate the logic of my arguments. What is more Glafkos Klerides and George Vasiliou the two last leaders of GC community express similar arguments with me. And they are these people who apply for Cyprus membership to EU and not any other GC party. It is very tragic and a big HYPPOCRICY how many GCs underestimates their views after so much hard work they had done and succeeded in Cyprus membership to EU.

What has Papadopoulos done so Far? Has he moved any step forward ? He fails to anticipate that the world has changed since 60s and it is not the same!
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Postby Piratis » Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:50 pm

You are the one who is misinformed and who interpreted the plan wrongly because you accept whatever the Anglo-Americans tell you.

Cleredes and Vasilou are responsible for what happened. They are the ones that gave the promises that we are willing to accept just about any solution they give to us. After all these how do you expect people to trust them? We want a leader that will work for our interests, not a "leader" that will serve the interests of others so they will welcome him and invite him to their high class meetings and events.
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Postby PEACE » Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:26 pm

I do not accuse anybody for mistakes of the past. I thought I was clear about this. But you can't ask for your rights in RC and at the same time (I am not talking about the past) try to destroy and harm RC!!


If we are looking for a federal solution of course when Cyprus problem become solved there won't be RC! Cos RC is an unitary state.We want a federal solution.

Any negotations means harm to RC ! :lol:

There are some critical matters which are "red-lines" for us, and at a minimum these critical matters should be satisfied before we reconsider the plan.

What are your critical "red lines"? :wink:
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Postby Piratis » Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:23 pm

What are your critical "red lines"?


The following are unacceptable:

-Permanent presence of Turkish troops with the right to intervene.

-Number of settlers that stay (with no agreed mechanism on how the rest will be forced (not simply asked) to leave).

-Effective veto power of TC on everything.

-No warranties that we will get what we were promised

-The weak central state and a number of other things that create an "association" instead of federation (like separate citizenships, mostly separate economies etc).

All of the above should change and the "new" Cyprus should be functional and viable.
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Postby PEACE » Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:02 pm

Honestly i don't trust to your fanatics and leaders ! So Turkey's intervene right should be protected.

The weak central state and a number of other things that create an "association" instead of federation (like separate citizenships, mostly separate economies etc).


Any solution style that lets Gcs to dominate TCs are unacceptable!I can say yes to any solution that prevents this.

Other points are OK! :wink:

Number of settlers that stay (with no agreed mechanism on how the rest will be forced (not simply asked) to leave).

-Effective veto power of TC on everything.

-No warranties that we will get what we were promised


I agree with you! :wink:
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Postby michalis5354 » Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:20 pm

insan wrote:You can't change the world but you may change points of view
When you change points of view, you can change the things
And when you change the things, you can change the world...

Regards :)


No one can benefit by remain SILENT!
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