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I'm So Confused...

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

I'm So Confused...

Postby PEACE » Fri May 21, 2004 8:11 pm

Well,before joining to this forum i was supposing that we are ready for a solution but the problem is politicans! But i realized that its not ! It's clear that there are so deep cliffs among Greek Cypriot's thoughts and Turkish Cypriot's thoughts in this forum.

I wonder that whats the percentage of acceptance of Piratis' and MicAtCyp's thoughts among Greek Cypriots!

If their thoughts are majority's than i have to change my nickname ! Cos PEACE becomes only a dream!

If the majority thinks like this two,i pray its not,than its better to talk not on federal solution style.We can start to discuss two seperate state style solution.Why i said this ? Cos a solution that Turkish Cypriots will have only minority rights and a solution with a real federation assuming the reality of two communities exist here are so different that this two will never be harmonized!This brings a seperation!

I'm not supporting two seperate state solution style but if the situation is like this how can we live in an United Cyprus under same goverment!?

I heard that even Annan can bring two seperate state solution style in future days!

So Piratis and MicAtCyp can live with their" full human rights and full democracy" meaning without dealing with Turkish Cypriots if Turkish Cypriots got so much rights or Tc's economic level is becoming Ok !Also their economy stays like today and they can govern a Hellenic goverment where Greek Cypriots governs it only...


So all your dreams come true...
Its so good solution guys,isn't it? :roll:

Sorry ...Some made me say these ! But you "two" made me to loose all my hopes about PEACE and living in united,federal and bi-communal Cyprus...


Only one thing left behind... Praying that you "two" is not writing majority of Greek Cypriot's thoughts here...
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Postby mehmet » Fri May 21, 2004 8:58 pm

a two state solution might be the only alternative but my guess is that the Greek Cypriot state would continue to argue that we are an illegitemate state and would continue to press sanctions on un indefinitely. Am I wrong?

Therefore the choices would best be summarised as agree to their concept of a united Cyprus or accept their version of a divided Cyprus. We lose either way. Still when all Turkish Cypriots are in London and they are negotiating with people from the mainland for a united Cyprus they will realise their mistake.
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Postby PEACE » Fri May 21, 2004 9:06 pm

mehmet wrote:a two state solution might be the only alternative but my guess is that the Greek Cypriot state would continue to argue that we are an illegitemate state and would continue to press sanctions on un indefinitely. Am I wrong?



No,you didn't undertand what i'm talking about !

Turkish Republic Of Nothern Cyprus is illegal and we can't continue with it.But what am i saying is "two seperated state style" solution base ! Up to now UN worked for federal solution style ! But if UN see that federal base is not suitable than they will look for other solution ways.

Negotations will be on not federal base but two seperate state base ! :wink:

On the other hand i'm not giving this a chance for now ! The one and only solution base seems federal base !Negotations are held on this base.No more nor less ! So the ones can stop talking about uniteral solution base!
The important point is how this federation will be!
A weak federation where we can easly loose our identity or a strong, federation which contains two zones !

Our "neighbours" have to understand that they have to respect other community's rights while they are using their rights!Rights are not unlimited ! They can be limited to protect some other rights!
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Postby Piratis » Fri May 21, 2004 9:45 pm

"PEACE", first of all you got the terms "strong" and "week" federation mixed up. What you are arguing for is something very weak, so weak we can't call it federation anymore.

Therefore you are the one who can not accept federation and not us. Because we (the great majority of GC) can accept a true federation because we made this huge compromise already and we got used to the idea that a minority of 18% will eventually have its own federal state.

Unfortunately, instead of doing some true compromises too (in which case we would meet in the middle which is federation) you are trying to have a separate state in disguise. And lets face it, the only reason you don't ask for a "standard" partition now (like you did for the last 30 years) is that now you want the benefits of the EU (that we had to work for to achieve), and if you get a standard partition you can't have those.

However your conclusion might be true that in the end we will always live separately because we can't agree. But in this way there will never be peace and we will always be enemies, because there was an invasion, there are refugees, there are stolen properties. Don't expect that we will ever give our land as a gift to you.

Also, even assume Annan comes with a two state solution. Do you think thats good for you? Annan will give to GC at least an equal amount of land as he did with his previews plan, and give to TC a separate country. Lets assume that we even accept such thing. What will you gain? You will become even smaller minority in the north because even more Turks will come, you will be locked out of the EU forever along with your motherland, and you will just be a huge military base of Turkey.

If you join us in a federal system like the one I propose, you get a lot of internal autonomy and you secure the TC identity forever, you get rid of the control of Turkey, and you are equal EU citizens in a democratic and independent federal country. I really can't see why you keep asking for such outrageous things and choose to live with fake dreams, when you can grab something so good today.
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Postby PEACE » Fri May 21, 2004 10:28 pm

What you are arguing for is something very weak, so weak we can't call it federation anymore.


Yes,you are right !I mixed up! Thanks!

What i want is a federation like in Annan Plan!We can make some changes about some details but we can't change the type!





a true federation


Federation in Annan Plan is a wrong federation? :lol: :lol: :roll:

What you want to mean is a federation where TCs has minority rights!


lets face it, the only reason you don't ask for a "standard" partition now (like you did for the last 30 years) is that now you want the benefits of the EU (that we had to work for to achieve), and if you get a standard partition you can't have those.

EU is not the reason! Reason is we want to govern ourself and having a life connected to the world.We don't want to be governed by Turkey nor only by Gcs!




Also, even assume Annan comes with a two state solution. Do you think thats good for you?

Its federation! But your federation understanding is different !


You will become even smaller minority in the north because even more Turks will come, you will be locked out of the EU forever along with your motherland, and you will just be a huge military base of Turkey.


We have a proverb here. "The one who fall into sea ,hugs to a snake."
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Postby Piratis » Sat May 22, 2004 2:16 am

Federation in Annan Plan is a wrong federation?


There is no federation in Annan plan. First of all, it is based on the swiss confederation. But it doesn't stop there. It makes the connection of the two states even less and the central government even weaker which makes even the term "confederation" to be too much for it. Reuters in its articles usually calls the result we would have if Anna solution was accepted a "week association".
So Annan plan solution is not even a federation.

Reason is we want to govern ourself and having a life connected to the world


You can't steel the land of others and then say that you will keep this land and govern yourself there. What you have does not belong to you. Cyprus belongs to all Cypriots.

We have a proverb here. "The one who fall into sea ,hugs to a snake."


Nice proverb. The point is that now land is very close to you, and if you swim a bit you can get out of the sea. However, instead of swimming it seems you prefer to stay in the sea with the snake.
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Postby metecyp » Sat May 22, 2004 4:33 am

So Annan plan solution is not even a federation.

This is just your opinion unless you support it with actual facts from the plan. It's true that the Annan plan was based on the Swiss confederation, but this doesn't mean that it's not federation. There're many aspects of it that strongly suggest a federal structure. For example, it's clearly stated that there is one Cypriot sovereignity and there's one Cypriot citizenship. The constituent states can ONLY exercise what's not already governed by the federal government. The federal government is finely balanced between TCs and GCs, in some cases (Senate) the political equality of TCs is assured. In other cases (the Chamber of Deputies) the fact that GCs have much higher population than TCs is reflected.

It's a finely balanced federation where no one side is dominated by the other. This is what you don't want to accept because according to you, minority concerns do not matter too much in democracies.
You can't steel the land of others and then say that you will keep this land and govern yourself there. What you have does not belong to you. Cyprus belongs to all Cypriots.

TCs agreed to return a significant amount of land with the Annan plan. They also agreed for a significant number of GCs to live in the Turkish constituent state and they further agreed on no GC settlement limitations for Karpasia. What you're asking is "return of all refugees with no limitations" which is impossible if we'll ever have some type of federation.
However, instead of swimming it seems you prefer to stay in the sea with the snake.

No my friend. TCs swam a lot in the last couple of years trying to reach to the land. They changed the whole political structure in the north. They tried their best for a solution. TCs moved from two independent states to federation, but your side still has difficulty in accepting TCs in Republic of Cyprus, let alone federation.
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answer

Postby PEACE » Sat May 22, 2004 11:23 am

There is no federation in Annan plan. First of all, it is based on the swiss confederation.


I'm hearing this from you! Its not important what Reuters say in its articles.They can use wrong words! Cos they are not lawyers or negotators.

Did any of your politicans said that Annan plan refers to a confederation?


Quote:
Reason is we want to govern ourself and having a life connected to the world


You can't steel the land of others and then say that you will keep this land and govern yourself there. What you have does not belong to you. Cyprus belongs to all Cypriots.


Your answer is not the subject that i'm talking about! You are abusing "stolen property" word group everywhere.

I said that we want to govern ourself and want to live as a world citizen!
This is not related with stolen properties !
You'll get 1/3 of your properties and for left you'll have compensation ! This is not related with governing ourself!



The point is that now land is very close to you, and if you swim a bit you can get out of the sea. However, instead of swimming it seems you prefer to stay in the sea with the snake.


At seaside there is another snake who are ready to threaten us "You'll accept 18% rights or we'll return back to 1963 events" like MicAtCyp said!So i prefer less poisonous one!Don't be angry about "snake" subject ! I just tried to make a link between proverb.You are not a "snake"! :wink:
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Postby michalis5354 » Sat May 22, 2004 11:39 am

It is the Responsibility of those who voted No to the UN plan to provide an alternative plan that would satisfy all aggreements made in 1960 and onwards by both communities and propose this to the UN Kofi Annan as an alternative to the UN Annan plan.

Then ,when they do such action everyone should take them seriously! But not now !We are all FED UP with blind , words.

Is Papadopoulos ready to do such action? I am afraid not! He will serve the interest of cyprus only If he resign at the moment.
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Postby Piratis » Sat May 22, 2004 12:11 pm

Did any of your politicans said that Annan plan refers to a confederation?


This is obvious to anybody that has a clue. The Annan plan is based on the swiss confederation, but is even weaker than that!
Federations are in the US, Russia etc. We accept a true federation similar to those any day.

I said that we want to govern ourself and want to live as a world citizen!
This is not related with stolen properties !
You'll get 1/3 of your properties and for left you'll have compensation ! This is not related with governing ourself!


How about if we give to you compensation to leave from Cyprus and you go buy land in Turkey and you govern yourself there? Would you accept that?
Not everything is about money. Cyprus belongs to all Cypriots.


At seaside there is another snake who are ready to threaten us "You'll accept 18% rights or we'll return back to 1963 events" like MicAtCyp said!So i prefer less poisonous one!Don't be angry about "snake" subject ! I just tried to make a link between proverb.You are not a "snake"!


So according to you are we a snake or not? Nobody said of going back to any events. What we (majority of GC) talk about is a federation of a united independent Cyprus where all its people are equal EU citizens.
There is no snake in the land, but the snake in the sea convinced you that there is one so you will stay in the sea with it forever serving its interests.
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