You still provided no evidence.
Do you have any? If you do, don't waste your time posting it here. Forward it straight to Interpol.
What more evidence do you want?
You haven't provided any
You know very well that our antiquities are being sold on the black market, and you seek to absolve the "TRNC" from all responsibility by blaming the Turkish mafia and the Turkish Deep State.
I'm sorry, but it just does not work that way. All TCs are responsible for the desecration of Cypriot history as well as the Turkish Army and the Deep State.
Then all GCs are responsible as well, because stuff still gets looted and stolen from southern Cyprus. And the RoC is responsible too, because stuff still gets looted and stolen from its territory, including from its museums.
You cannot blame TCs but not GCs. That's not because it would be unfair or imbalanced: that's because it would be untrue. Looting happens all over the island, so if the TCs and the TRNC are responsible for it happening in northern Cyprus, the GCs and the RoC are responsible for it happening in southern Cyprus.
You also choose to ignore the fact that TCs are selling stolen GC properties. Is the Turkish deep State responsible for this as well, or are you finally going to admit that the TCs are also involved and are enjoying the stolen loot as we speak? There are forum members here, who are exploiting GC properties. And of course, they don't want a solution because they will lose their illegitimate gains.
I ignored it because it is a different subject. It's the same reason I didn't talk about the massive hotels, or the money-laundering, or anything else.
As for the houses, I would only say that most Turkish Cypriots are poor, and people selling stolen Greek Cypriot homes make a huge profit; so it's very obvious that most Turkish Cypriots are not selling Greek Cypriot houses or profiting from their sale.
For a while, $1 billion of Russian mafia money was being laundered in the RoC every month
. Are the GCs responsible for that? Did the GCs profit from that?
Being an archaeologist/historian/lecturer at Sussex university, you are obviously an intelligent person, but please do not insult my intelligence. The evidence is all around you Sam Hardy.
I'm only a student, and I'm not insulting your intelligence. I respect you. I think you can understand the evidence and see the truth - that's why I'm showing it to you.
You have no idea how powerful the Turkish Deep State is, do you?
Yes I do. And the "TRNC" is part of the very same
Turkish Deep State.
You know this is true.
It depends upon which people and institutions we're talking about. Some of the police are; some of the police aren't. Denktas was; Talat is not.
Anyway, as PACE Senator Ymenus van der Werff had already observed twenty years ago,
The south is also vulnerable as the theft of the Leda and Swan mosaic from the Paphos museum shows. Unfortunately, the international art market is now well aware of the existence of a well-funded market in the south for items coming from the north (van der Werff, 1989: 11).
(Van der Werff, Y. 1989: Information report on the cultural heritage of Cyprus (Doc. 6079). Brussels: Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe.)
Are you going to hold the South accountable?
Yes I am.
I hold them responsible because they did not have adequate measures for preventing this from happening.But it is hardly comparable to the wholesale looting of Cypriot antiquities and artifacts by the "TRNC" regime. You keep stating that the "TRNC" is not part of this Deep State, but you seem to forget that Denktash was the "TRNC" president for many years and now the TCs have elected Eroglu.
Are you going to report it to Interpol as well?
The RoC probably has reported it to Interpol.
I meant, are you going to report the RoC to Interpol because it "allowed" Leda and Swan to be stolen. (If the TRNC "allows" itself to be robbed, so does the RoC.)
No, because being robbed doesn't make you a robber; it makes you a victim. The RoC didn't help the thieves take the Leda and Swan; the RoC tried to stop theft; but it couldn't. It's the same for the TRNC.
Hardly a good analogy between a criminal event and the looting and desecration of Cypriot antiquities by the "TRNC" regime.
If I steal your car, can I tell the police you were my accomplice? After all, you didn't stop me stealing your car.
Now you are being silly.
If I am, you were being before. You said (all) the TCs were accomplices in the looting of northern Cyprus (because they didn't stop it). It's the same argument.
It isn't too happy about that, no! That's why there was nearly a coup - nearly two! And there were several "mini"-coups, like the "e-coup". There were also murders, like the murder of Hrant Dink.
Now we are getting somewhere.
The Turkish State has enshrined the Turkish Deep State so much so that its powers are even enshrined within the constitution.
If the Turkish State is the Turkish Deep State, why does the Turkish Deep State need to have coups to overthrow the Turkish State? Why does the deep state need to commit murders to scare the Turkish community and the Turkish state? The Turkish state and the Turkish community are against the deep state - that's why it needs to frighten and kill them.
Of course, in 1996 there was the murder of Kutlu Adali, for his reporting on the Turkish Deep State's looting of St. Barnabas Monastery. (In fact, he blamed the Civil Defence Organisation, which was an auxiliary of the Turkish Cypriot Security Forces Command, which was... the successor to TMT.) But don't let his death cloud your judgement...
Yeh...and I wonder who murdered him...The very supporters of Denktash and Eroglu perhaps?
I suspect he was killed by the people he accused of looting St. Barnabas Monastery. At least, they put the contract on him. As far as I understand, it was probably Grey Wolf Abdullah Catli
who killed him.
Turkish Cypriots are not free. They are not free to criticise the Turkish Deep State, and they are not free to challenge it.
They have themselves to blame for this, and soon they will be removed from the equation all together.
So now you accept that they are not free, but you still hold them responsible...?
The Turkish Cypriots don't benefit from the profits; that goes to and stays with the criminals.
I blame Turkey, the "TRNC" and the Turkish Army.
If you want to blame the Turkish Cypriots because the criminals spend their money in Turkish Cypriot shops, why don't you blame the Greek Cypriots for giving them the money to spend?
And what have the TCs done about preventing the looting of Cypriot Antiquities? And why would I blame the GCs for trying to preserve my inheritance?
So, it's okay for Greek Cypriots to give them money, but not for Turkish Cypriots to take the money from them? Or, it's bad for TCs to take money from the criminals, but it's not bad for GCs to give money to them?
The Turkish Cypriots would have a better chance of resisting the Turkish Deep State if it weren't so well-funded and well-armed...
I don't see much resistance going on. Do you?
Well, above you accepted that they were not free to resist. You said "they have themselves to blame for this". How
do you resist when you don't have the freedom to resist? You must understand, if you don't have the ability to resist, you don't have... the ability to resist. And if you don't have the freedom to do something, you are not responsible for not doing it.
I haven't achieved world peace or ended world hunger. But I'm not responsible for that, because I don't have the ability
to achieve world peace or end world hunger. The TCs don't have the ability to resist, so they're not responsible for not getting rid of the occupation and the deep state.
If so, why are they not resisting the plunder of stolen GC property?
Is the ECJ ruling against the Orams good enough proof for you?
I don't deny that some
TCs are selling stolen GC property; I deny that all of them are, or that all of them are responsible for the few
Is there no emoticon for doffing my cap to you?
I don't use emoticons when discussing serious matters pertaining to my enslaved country and the continued injustice it endures...
My state has an elected government (though I did not vote for the party in power). It has invaded two countries and interfered in others in the time that I have been voting; but I am not responsible for my government's actions. I complained. I protested. What more did I have to do? Hold a coup...?
No! Because your country did not invade another country to permanently divide, conquer and occupy
And if we go back further in time, the entire British Empire
If your country did do this, and also ethnically cleansed, sold stolen refugee property and the countries antiquities and national treasures, then you and every other Brit would have a lot to answer for.
There is no "TRNC" to cooperate with. There is just an illegal Turkish military occupation on the island and the RoC is not going to cooperate with the occupiers or give them any recognition whatsoever.
You want the international community to cooperate with the RoC, but not the TRNC, even though the stuff is getting stolen from the TRNC...?
You want the TRNC to cooperate with, or help, you, but you don't want to cooperate with or help the TRNC? You say the RoC needs the international community to help it. How do you think the TRNC can cope on its own?
It is the "TRNC" that has looted and desecrated the island of its antiquities and heritage. There is no need to cooperate with thieves.
It is not the TRNC.
If you insist upon reducing the Turkish Cypriot community, and the Turkish Cypriot administration, and the Turkish community, and the Turkish state, and the Turkish deep state, all to the same thing, all to one eternal enemy, one eternal evil, you will never achieve peace, and you will never rescue your country.
Say goodbye to your cultural heritage and your country, because if you do not cooperate with the Turkish Cypriot community, you will not achieve anything. You will lose northern Cyprus forever.
They were not trying to preserve Cyprus's sovereignty. They were trying to do precisely the opposite, to give up Cyprus's sovereignty entirely to Greece.
Any proof to back up this statement?
The definition of enosis was union with Greece. Do you think that when Greece and Cyprus unified, the Greek government was going to disappear and the Cypriot government would rule both countries? Cyprus would have become like Crete; it would have lost its sovereignty.
Have you heard of the TMT Kophinou blockade and the illegal importation of Arms through the the Kokkina Beachhead.
Why wasn't ENOSIS declared when there were thousands of Greek Troops on the ground trying to preserve the peace? And why did these Greek troops withdraw to make way for the UN Peace Keeping Force?
Because ENOSIS was not on their agenda.The ENOSIS agenda came later when the US created the Acheson Plan for double union.
And if you think killing civilians is self-defence, then, er...
How many GC and TC civilians were killed by TMT?
So if we're standing on Ledra Street, and you pull out a gun and shoot a woman shopping, I'm allowed to do the same?
I'm not defending TMT. I dislike both EOKA and TMT.
The country was at war, and the Republic of Cyprus was defending itself from TMT partitionist objectives. There were bound to be civilian casualties along the line.
They were not all accidental casualties.
In addition to the hostile environment that was created by combatants on both sides, there was a second factor that led to the polarization of both communities: with a view toward partition, the Turks withdrew from predominantly Greek areas and evicted Greeks from areas where Turks were in the majority.
Turkish extremists forced several thousand Turkish peasants to abandon their farms and animals and move into an overcrowded Turkish enclave in Nicosia.
Turkish Cypriots who favoured compromise or a close relationship between the two ethnic communities were targets of TMT violence.
In Limassol, a Turkish Cypriot owner of a restaurant popular with Greeks was threatened and later murdered by the TMT.
Two progressive-thinking, London-educated Turkish barristers who spoke against partition were killed outright by these same Turkish gangs.
"Thus the aim of partition, camouflaged by Turkish propaganda as `federation,' was relentlessly pursued regardless of loss of human life and the human misery created.
On December 23, 1963, Turkish gangs also moved through the Armenian quarter of Nicosia and forced the inhabitants at gunpoint to leave their houses, shops, church, school and clubs to make room for more Turks.
This stuff has been endlessly discussed here. From Greek Cypriot Makarios Drousiotis to Canadian UN peacekeeper Richard Patrick, no-one denies that TMT and the Turkish Deep State are a bunch of bastards, but everyone neutral agrees that EOKA and Akritas were also a bunch of bastards, and that Akritas pushed for violence for enosis.
of the Akritas Plan did you read?
I have read the document, and it makes no
mention of ENOSIS.[/quote]
Look, I'm happy to talk to you about interesting things. I enjoy a discussion - even an argument! - but I'm not pissing away my time discussing whether or not the Akritas Organisation was enosist.