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The Cyprus Solution - The Next Step Forward....

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby cannedmoose » Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:51 pm

Dhavlos wrote:I think in both cyp/uk communities, the Church has got a lot to answer for.


Again, in both countries I think you're right. The Church feels that it speaks for the people when it comes to the Kypriako and in many instances promotes hatred of Turks.

Dhavlos wrote:Its misinformation....most of the 'radical' ones i think, are learning of the cyprus problem though their family and not researching themselves. THey take the simplist view that turkey invaded and split the island....many do not know that their was a greek military coup first. So inevitably, they think the greeks are guilt-free.


Again, a well-positioned analysis, I agree entirely.

Dhavlos wrote:I would like to think im more level-headed than most GCs, old or young.


Without any doubt re.
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Postby Viewpoint » Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:54 pm

cannedmoose
I'm sure this goes on in the north as well, but I was pleased to see how the curriculum had been amended to include a more balanced textbook view of the situation. It would be good if the GCs took the lead and did the same.


You are right we did have the same problem but the as you mentioned we have made changes and encourage children to investigate the problem them selves from different sources to try and get a more balanced view.
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Postby cannedmoose » Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:56 pm

Viewpoint wrote:You are right we did have the same problem but the as you mentioned we have made changes and encourage children to investigate the problem them selves from different sources to try and get a more balanced view.


Which should be encouraged and should continue no matter what happens in the next few years.
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Postby Yiannis » Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:02 pm

I'm sure this goes on in the north as well, but I was pleased to see how the curriculum had been amended to include a more balanced textbook view of the situation. It would be good if the GCs took the lead and did the same.


What exactly was the change the TCs made on the curriculum and books?
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Postby Piratis » Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:17 pm

Piratis you are one very angry GCs Im only glad that I have only met a few like you or do the others conceal their true feelings???


I say what I believe. I believe in human rights, democracy and in the rule of law, and I demand that I have no less rights than any other EU citizen in its own country. What part of what I say is wrong according to you?

Why are you so caught up in measuring the amount of blame for events that led up to 1974 does this make you feel better to think that TCs were 99% the cause, if so then your line of thought is very warped my friend, ease up we are not trying to gain brownie points, when I stated we all messed up it was a way of drawing a line on the past and moving forward.


Why? Because your whole theory is that the GCs are the bad guys that now have to be punished by getting even less than what was agreed in 1960. This is why I have to remind you that if GCs are bad, you are 100 times bad. If somebody has to be punished based on the past, these are you not us.
Do I want anybody to be punished? No. I say lets just forget about it, lets stop trying to blame each other and lets return to legality, to democracy, to human rights.
Do you accept that? No you don't. You want to gain on our loss. You want to take more than what you had in the 1960 agreements and you want us to accept less because you threaten us your army will keep away from us even more. This is your goodwill? Do you expect us to like people like you?



Whatever the content of the Annan Plan it was an overall comprehensive solution to the Cyprus issue. We TCs would have been very stupid to have voted any other way.


Of course you would have been stupid. The Americans gave you the legal partition + EU, what else could you ask for?


Why are you concerned so much if we remain unrecognized doesnt that still mean we are partitioned and you cannot get your hands on your property??? does it serve your interests??? no I dont see that it does. Would it be more in your interests to find a solution that would serve both our interests??

Of course it would be best to find a solution that would serve both the interests of TCs and GCs. But can you accept such solution? Don't you also have to serve the interests of the settlers that form a great part of the voters in the occupied areas? Can you ignore the interests of Turkey?
And when you feel that you have the power, do you really want to find a solution that will benefit just Cypriots (GCs and TCs), or you want to use this power in order to benefit yourselves, Turkey and the Angloamericans and screw GCs as much as possible? So far you have been doing only the second.

And now we come to the "unrecognized" part. Yes, it is important. Because the only thing that keeps partition today is the illegal occupation army. Once the balance of power will change (and it always does), we can reclaim the north part of our country by the law, and nobody will be able to say that we are doing something wrong. It will be the liberation, like when the allies liberated Europe from the Nazis.

Piratis....were you personnally affected by the invasion (ie loss of property/missing persons etc.) ?

I have no personal motives other than that I want to live in a regular EU country and have the exact same rights like all other EU citizens in their own countries.
I am not from 60s/70s and I know the history quite well. Also, I am an atheist, and I follow blindly nobody.

I am sorry that some people attack me personally because they are unable to reply.
Is it wrong that in our history the GCs have most of the blame for one decade? Is it wrong that the Ottomans oppressed GCs for centuries? Is it wrong that the occupation goes on for three decades?
What part of the history am I missing according to you?
No, I know the history, and I know that GCs do not deserve to be punished even more for that one decade, while the TCs are rewarded.
If anybody disagrees with me then I am waiting to hear some arguments on why the solution that we hope will last for long long time, should be one that gives to GCs even less, not even their basic human rights, and to the 18% TC minority so much more (by taking them away from GCs).
(apart from the logical answer: Because the Turks have military power and they want to gain on our loss as much as possible)


I hesitate to use that word because of the connotations involved, but yes VP, one could say that in terms of the way they are taught to view Turks (not necessarily TCs, but certainly Turks), and the way that they are taught the mantras of return of land, return of all refugees, when it is obvious that any future plan will not permit this, is a form of brainwashing by the state. Even more so for the male population, who follow school with army and have the same ideology drilled into them even more.

Oh yes. We are "brainwashed" that people should return to their own homes, that human rights should apply, and that our country should be liberated from foreign armies. If your country was under occupation, what do you think they will be teaching in your schools that would not be brainwashing?

What exactly was the change the TCs made on the curriculum and books?

They changed them from massively biased, to hugely biased. Don't expect to find there anything about a Turkish invasion or the ethnic cleansing that they performed against us.
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Postby negotiator » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:57 am

Tcs lost their homes to, they fled to the North for their protection.

The majority of the land and homes that they left behind in the South has also been used for development without their consent. But they are not as condeming as some.

The issue is always about land and money, is it not time we moved on from this, the division has been relatively peaceful for some 30 years.

I believe it should remain and be governed and run as two separate states, with an agreement of reparations for both sides. At the end of the day the probelm began and escalated when Britan renounced its rule. Therefore to some extent I think funds should come from there to satisfy both sides.

Thus allowing the two states to continue and prosper as individuals, with free right of movement as you would have in any EC country.
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Postby Piratis » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:35 am

Tcs lost their homes to, they fled to the North for their protection.

They "fled" to the north to achieve their dream: taksim (partition). Wasn't this what TCs always tried to achieve and what they are trying to legalize today?
Also, the 18% of TCs that actually owned less that 18% of land, grabbed the 37% of land, twice as much from what they owned.

Therefore you can not compared the GCs that were violently forced out of their homes during the ethnic cleansing Turks performed in Cyprus and were left with nothing, and the TCs that voluntarily moved to the occupied areas to achieve their long term goal of partition and grabbed twice as much as they owned before.


The majority of the land and homes that they left behind in the South has also been used for development without their consent. But they are not as condeming as some.

The majority of land and homes are used by the refugees you created. They do not claim that they own the land (like you do) and they would be more than glad to return it to you if you let them have their own properties back.

The issue is always about land and money, is it not time we moved on from this, the division has been relatively peaceful for some 30 years.


Sure, ethnic cleansing creates "peace". You don't like the Armenians? no problem. You don't like GCs, no problem. The Turks know how to produce "peace": by killing everybody and ethnic cleansing.
If you think this is peace, then you are wrong. An equivalent kind of peace can be achieved by moving all TCs out of Cyprus. Would you be agreeable with this kind of peace?

I believe it should remain and be governed and run as two separate states, with an agreement of reparations for both sides.

We know what you want. It is illegal, it is against human rights, and we will never agree to it. We lived in Cyprus (the whole Cyprus) for 3500 years. You think we can forget our land so easily? Maybe I have to remind you that Greece and other countries were under the Ottomans for centuries? In the long run, sooner or later, our land will be back to us and the criminals will be punished.
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Postby negotiator » Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:03 pm

Piratis I am not even going to bother to reply to your senseless waffle. As i said use a level head not emotions to deal with the issue then maybe something with meaning might be said.
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Postby Viewpoint » Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:10 pm

Piratis
I say what I believe. I believe in human rights, democracy and in the rule of law, and I demand that I have no less rights than any other EU citizen in its own country. What part of what I say is wrong according to you?



Many GCs quote the same phrases out of text books we have to take into account reality and our current situation, although we all ultimately wish for the same things, we have to evlove through stages to get there, you demand everything from day one whereas TCs are doubtful about GC intentions and therefore have be understood and assured that history will not repeat itself and GCs will never again try to reduce them to a minority in their own country. Can you understand this???

Why? Because your whole theory is that the GCs are the bad guys that now have to be punished by getting even less than what was agreed in 1960. This is why I have to remind you that if GCs are bad, you are 100 times bad. If somebody has to be punished based on the past, these are you not us.
Do I want anybody to be punished? No. I say lets just forget about it, lets stop trying to blame each other and lets return to legality, to democracy, to human rights.
Do you accept that? No you don't. You want to gain on our loss. You want to take more than what you had in the 1960 agreements and you want us to accept less because you threaten us your army will keep away from us even more. This is your goodwill? Do you expect us to like people like you?



Piratis get over this chip on your shoulder, whos to blame more and whos the bad guy, will it make you feel better if we accepted 100% of the blame?, where will it takes us?, nowhere wont change a thing. Get passed it my friend, what happened to 1974 happened we cant change it and the more we try to lay blame on each other the worse it gets, leave it and concentrate on the future whether it be together or as we are...

As for gaining on your loss, circumstances put us in the current situation and as to who has benefited from the current situation economically is clear to see, we do not need to question that point.


Of course it would be best to find a solution that would serve both the interests of TCs and GCs. But can you accept such solution? Don't you also have to serve the interests of the settlers that form a great part of the voters in the occupied areas? Can you ignore the interests of Turkey?
And when you feel that you have the power, do you really want to find a solution that will benefit just Cypriots (GCs and TCs), or you want to use this power in order to benefit yourselves, Turkey and the Angloamericans and screw GCs as much as possible? So far you have been doing only the second.


Of course we want a solution that will serve the interests of all Cypriots but if the Annan plan was the best solution your administration could formulate then why are we to blame, you should really be asking them what went wrong and not trying to lay the blame on everyone else.

For me personally settlers are not a major problem as long as those that built their lives here on the island can stay.

Piratis how do we ignore Turkey??? you ar enot stupid to get rid of TUrkey we have to economically independent so we can move away from them but if we are constantly under isolation and now allowed to build our economy them we will be bound to them forever, this is where I feel GCs should re-evalute their negative stance and assist us to move away from Turkey and more towards the south, therefore aiding a solution.

And now we come to the "unrecognized" part. Yes, it is important. Because the only thing that keeps partition today is the illegal occupation army. Once the balance of power will change (and it always does), we can reclaim the north part of our country by the law, and nobody will be able to say that we are doing something wrong. It will be the liberation, like when the allies liberated Europe from the Nazis.


you constantly refer to the change in balance of power and we TCs say OK we are willing to wait are you??? will we be alive??

Oh yes. We are "brainwashed" that people should return to their own homes, that human rights should apply, and that our country should be liberated from foreign armies. If your country was under occupation, what do you think they will be teaching in your schools that would not be brainwashing?



Dont you feel it would be better for GCs to allow their youth to make their own decisions rather than drumming into them that TCs are thieves murders and rapists??? we have taken the the first step time for people to change...

They "fled" to the north to achieve their dream: taksim (partition). Wasn't this what TCs always tried to achieve and what they are trying to legalize today?
Also, the 18% of TCs that actually owned less that 18% of land, grabbed the 37% of land, twice as much from what they owned.

Therefore you can not compared the GCs that were violently forced out of their homes during the ethnic cleansing Turks performed in Cyprus and were left with nothing, and the TCs that voluntarily moved to the occupied areas to achieve their long term goal of partition and grabbed twice as much as they owned before.

The majority of land and homes are used by the refugees you created. They do not claim that they own the land (like you do) and they would be more than glad to return it to you if you let them have their own properties back.

Sure, ethnic cleansing creates "peace". You don't like the Armenians? no problem. You don't like GCs, no problem. The Turks know how to produce "peace": by killing everybody and ethnic cleansing.
If you think this is peace, then you are wrong. An equivalent kind of peace can be achieved by moving all TCs out of Cyprus. Would you be agreeable with this kind of peace?

We know what you want. It is illegal, it is against human rights, and we will never agree to it. We lived in Cyprus (the whole Cyprus) for 3500 years. You think we can forget our land so easily? Maybe I have to remind you that Greece and other countries were under the Ottomans for centuries? In the long run, sooner or later, our land will be back to us and the criminals will be punished.


Piratis my friend, just read your own posts its clear to see you have so much pent up anger and a vendetta against TCs and Turks very alarming and confirmation that some GCs have the not changed or cannot change, we to want to live in peace, we dont want to gain on anyone elses loss but you have to understand that both communities suffered and if we really want to solve the Cyprus issue then we have to compromise and be pratical whether this be unfication or recognized partition.
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Postby Piratis » Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:16 pm

Piratis I am not even going to bother to reply to your senseless waffle.

If it makes no sense to you then better not reply until you get a brain upgrade.


Many GCs quote the same phrases out of text books we have to take into account reality and our current situation, although we all ultimately wish for the same things, we have to evlove through stages to get there, you demand everything from day one whereas TCs are doubtful about GC intentions and therefore have be understood and assured that history will not repeat itself and GCs will never again try to reduce them to a minority in their own country. Can you understand this???


Maybe things like democracy, human rights etc are thinks that for you should belong only to text books. For us it is not, I guess it is a culture thing so maybe it is useless to try to explain to you how vital those things are for us.
I do not demand anything from day one. I perfectly agree for stages and for transitional periods. However, these transitional periods should be defined from the beginning and should be part of the solution. Are you going to tell us that if we sign something that gives you too much (e.g. Annan plan) you will come voluntarily to give it up later on? I know that you will not.



Piratis get over this chip on your shoulder, whos to blame more and whos the bad guy, will it make you feel better if we accepted 100% of the blame?, where will it takes us?, nowhere wont change a thing. Get passed it my friend, what happened to 1974 happened we cant change it and the more we try to lay blame on each other the worse it gets, leave it and concentrate on the future whether it be together or as we are...

What we want is our rights. You say what happened in 74 can not change, I say it will. You really think our land belongs to you because you illegally kept it for 30 years? We lived in that land for 3500 years, and we will take it back sooner or later.

As for gaining on your loss, circumstances put us in the current situation and as to who has benefited from the current situation economically is clear to see, we do not need to question that point.

Of course it is clear. We would have been so much more ahead if it wasn't for the invasion. Your illegal invasion and the stealing of more than 1/3rd of our land and over 50% of the resources is what has kept us so low.

Of course we want a solution that will serve the interests of all Cypriots but if the Annan plan was the best solution your administration could formulate then why are we to blame, you should really be asking them what went wrong and not trying to lay the blame on everyone else.

Our government didn't formulate the Annan plan, and it had rejected it. Maybe your memory is not so good.
The Annan plan was made by the Americans, not us.

Piratis how do we ignore Turkey??? you ar enot stupid to get rid of TUrkey we have to economically independent so we can move away from them but if we are constantly under isolation and now allowed to build our economy them we will be bound to them forever, this is where I feel GCs should re-evalute their negative stance and assist us to move away from Turkey and more towards the south, therefore aiding a solution.

There is one Cyprus, part of which is occupied. The illegal occupants will not be helped to build an economy by exploiting our own land.

you constantly refer to the change in balance of power and we TCs say OK we are willing to wait are you??? will we be alive??

Waiting is the only option for us right now. Legalizing partition with Annan plan or similar is not an option.

Dont you feel it would be better for GCs to allow their youth to make their own decisions rather than drumming into them that TCs are thieves murders and rapists??? we have taken the the first step time for people to change...

I see. So you want the parents not to tell to their children that their own properties are stolen by you. You want us to forget about our own land so you can exploit it freely. Sorry, will not happen.

Piratis my friend, just read your own posts its clear to see you have so much pent up anger and a vendetta against TCs and Turks very alarming and confirmation that some GCs have the not changed or cannot change, we to want to live in peace, we dont want to gain on anyone elses loss but you have to understand that both communities suffered and if we really want to solve the Cyprus issue then we have to compromise and be pratical whether this be unfication or recognized partition.


You violate our human rights every day and then you complain that we are angry because of this? Of course we are, what did you expect? To get used of having our rights violated??
So be sure that as long us you violate our rights we will not forget and we will continue to be angry.

As far as compromises goes, I am still waiting to hear what compromises you are willing to make in order to achieve solution. So far you made non. The only thing you make is reduce a bit your illegal demands and nothing beyond that. Is these what TC compromises are about?
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