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A revised Plan: What would you vote?

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

If this plan was put to referendum tomorrow, what would you vote?

I am a GC and I would vote Yes
6
29%
I am a GC and I would vote No
6
29%
I am a TC and I would vote Yes
1
5%
I am a TC and I would vote No
8
38%
 
Total votes : 21

Postby Alexandros Lordos » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:25 am

Viewpoint wrote:Alex have you taken into account that over the past year TCs have lost their momentum for a solution and they are now starting more and more to realize we cannot make a go of it with the south (due to current developments and lack of progress together with GCs stance) and maybe we shouıld stay as we are. This attitude is making TCs cling more firmly onto what they have and thats Turkey, before the referendum TCs questioned what would be best for TCs, Turkey vs Unification with the GC South and we all know the result. The feeling Im getting from even the YES voters is that if there was a another referendum without questioning the content would vote NO based purely on their opinion of joining up with the mindset/viewpoints of the administration in the south.


Viewpoint, you are confirming the estimation that I have gradually been developing, that the problem of the TCs is not the actual details of any re-unification plan, but, more existentially, whether they want to be re-united with the GCs or not. I think your thoughts/concerns are an accurate representation of TC current opinion. As you always say, correctly, for the TCs it is all about trust.

For the GCs it is different, it is not so much about trust as it is about the actual details of a re-unification plan. GCs want a better plan, while TCs need to see the GCs in a better light, as human beings and as future partners, before they can go ahead with a solution.

By the way, concerning your second point, whether recognised partition will become realistic, depends greatly on Turkey's EU prospects. If Turkey continues towards the EU, then recognised partition is not realistic politically because a Greek and an RoC veto against Turkish accession would be guaranteed under such circumstances. If however Turkey moves away from the EU, then indeed there would be little to stop the trend towards recognised partition.
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Postby Viewpoint » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:54 am

Alex I think today we would be hard pushed to get a 40% YES from the North let alone a majority, the issue has gone off the boil and TCs although meet GCs on daily basis although very friendly towards each other have moved towards negative feelings of trust rather than building a foundation which can be built upon with each development.

With regards to the Veto power of Greece and "RoC" plus a further 23 other member states, I feel that "RoC" should be the last member to veto Turkeys aspirations of joining the EU firstly becasue is would cancel any leverage they have via EU and as you say would push us closer towards a definate recognized partition stage.
We will see how things develop coming up ro 3rd October and whether the "RoC" has the balls to use a veto which would imo be to their detriment.[/quote]
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Postby DO NOT FORGET 1974! » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:17 pm

Alexandros Lordos wrote:
By the way, concerning your second point, whether recognised partition will become realistic, depends greatly on Turkey's EU prospects. If Turkey continues towards the EU, then recognised partition is not realistic politically because a Greek and an RoC veto against Turkish accession would be guaranteed under such circumstances. If however Turkey moves away from the EU, then indeed there would be little to stop the trend towards recognised partition.

There is only one alternative to a solution that will not take into consideration our vital historical and existentialist interests. This is WAR!

The sooner we realise that the Turk will never change and will never agree to such a solution and the sooner we stop wasting our times with the capricious attitude of the TC leadership and the megalomaniac fantasies of the TURK, and the sooner we start preparing our selves, the sooner and better we will get rid of this hassle that constantly depletes all our energy for the last 40-50 years.
Last edited by DO NOT FORGET 1974! on Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:19 pm

Viewpoint wrote:With regards to the Veto power of Greece and "RoC" plus a further 23 other member states, I feel that "RoC" should be the last member to veto Turkeys aspirations of joining the EU firstly becasue is would cancel any leverage they have via EU and as you say would push us closer towards a definate recognized partition stage.
We will see how things develop coming up ro 3rd October and whether the "RoC" has the balls to use a veto which would imo be to their detriment.


You misunderstood me. The idea was that, if 10-15 years down the line, there is no willingness from a solution on the TC / Turkish side, and it comes to a point of a final decision for EU membership of Turkey, at that point it would be impossible for Greece and RoC NOT to use a veto.

A veto will not be used any sooner though, certainly not before 3rd October and certainly not over the next five years, because now Greece and the RoC want to help stabilise Turkey's EU course so that, as you say, they will be able to use leverage later.

But the idea that someday Turkey will somehow be an EU member while Cyprus is officially partisioned - well, that's a midsummer's night dream, to use a shakespearean expression.
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:31 pm

DO NOT FORGET 1974! wrote:There is only one alternative to a solution that will not take into consideration our vital historical and existentialist interests. This is WAR!


DO NOT FORGET, I have two questions for you:

- What do you see as "a solution that will take into consideration our vital historical and existentialist interests"? What is it that you envision for Cyprus?

- Putting aside for the moment the question of whether war is morally right or wrong, how feasible do you see a victory of the Greek/GC side over the Turkish/TC side on the military field, given that in terms of population and surface area Turkey is 5 times greater than Greece and Turkey is 5 times closer to Cyprus than Greece is?

Most GCs, even those who want a "purely Greek Cypriot Cyprus as the final solution", still do not advocate war, because they believe, pragmatically, that from a war we have everything to lose and nothing to gain. (You are aware that one possible result of a war could be the extinction of any remaining Hellenism in Cyprus, are you not?) On the contrary, most GCs feel that the area in which "we could win over the Turks" is diplomacy, and especially the fact that Turkey is trying to join the EU and therefore must make concessions in order to be in line with EU requirements.
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Postby Viewpoint » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:43 pm

Alex
well, that's a midsummer's night dream, to use a shakespearean expression.


Id agree that the whole idea of Turkey wanting to join the EU is as you say a dream and I personally feel Turkey aspiring towards EU norms is a good thing although this will not be easy journey, Turkey has to improve on many issues but isnt this the idea of a gradual accession process which countries like Spain completed in 8 years? Who knows Turkey with its vast potential may develop im 10 to 15 years time to stage where she may no longer have the same dream.
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Re: A revised Plan: What would you vote?

Postby magikthrill » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:09 pm

detailer wrote:That's right. Maybe GC can hold the property and get the rent for it. Giving limitless residence rights to GC in north will make the restrictions on their voting rights meaningless after a while.


can you explain how this is so? if you are concerned with your political voice not becoming that of a minorities (regardless of the fact that that is what your community is but anyway) then why does it matter who lives where if there are voting restrictions? are you under the impression that the northern third part of the island belongs solely to the TC community and that everyone else is but a guest there?
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Postby DO NOT FORGET 1974! » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:31 pm

Alexandros Lordos wrote:
DO NOT FORGET 1974! wrote:There is only one alternative to a solution that will not take into consideration our vital historical and existentialist interests. This is WAR!


DO NOT FORGET, I have two questions for you:

- What do you see as "a solution that will take into consideration our vital historical and existentialist interests"? What is it that you envision for Cyprus?

Cyprus has always been one entity during its very long history. We have always been living in all the corners of Cyprus since the begging of our appearance on this island. We have always been evenly spread out in all the corners of this island. We also happened to have always been the vast majority of the people in this country. At times we were the only people in this island. We have marked every corner, every field and every stone with our existence and our civilisation. Which area of Cyprus doesn’t belong to us? Salamina? Soloi? The castles in Pentadaktilos? Kerynia? Apostolos Andreas? Kythrea? Lapithos? St. Varnavas? All of these areas, towns, villages, monuments, etc, are closely associated (inseparable) with our history, with our consciousness, with our identity and with our existence as people. Which one of all these and the many more that I didn’t mention, are you willing to trade in with the Turks forever? Who gave us such a right today, something that our ancestors did not do for millenniums of years now, to exchange them and permanently alienate our selves from them?

Our language has always been spoken in all corners of Cyprus for 3-4 millenniums. Who gave us such a right now, simply because the TURK invaded 30 years ago and forced us out of the north half of our country, to put our signature under a permanent settlement that will deprive us, our language and our culture to exist in the north part of Cyprus, something which did not happen for so many millenniums? Our forefathers suffered all the evils and inflictions upon them for centuries. They came under all kinds of brutal rulers. Yet they never gave up their land, their country, their language and their identity. They suffered with patience and dignity and they remained in this country, in all its 4 corners, and gave it to us to continue our existence. Who are we today to donate half of it to those who invaded 30 years ago, either in the form of a partition or in the form of a solution that will alienate us forever from the north? Who are we? Who gave us such a right? What value and Significance do the 30 years since 1974 have, in front of the 3 plus millenniums that we existed as people, there and here, north and south, east and west and everywhere in Cyprus? We must be ashamed to even thinκ about it, set aside to speak or negotiate it!

I am not against the TCs. I accept their right to exist in this country too. I accept their right to their culture, to their religion and to their language. I am not interested in their assimilation. I do not want to dominate them. What I am not willing to negotiate is my right to exist with dignity and pride in all 4 corners of my country and to exercise, develop and promote my culture and language freely, in all 4 corners of my country, like my ancestors did for so many millenniums.

The Cyprus problem is not only a matter of properties, lands, political and human rights, etc. It is equally a problem of historical consciousness and human and cultural dignity of our people.

Alexandros Lordos wrote:- Putting aside for the moment the question of whether war is morally right or wrong, how feasible do you see a victory of the Greek/GC side over the Turkish/TC side on the military field, given that in terms of population and surface area Turkey is 5 times greater than Greece and Turkey is 5 times closer to Cyprus than Greece is?

Most GCs, even those who want a "purely Greek Cypriot Cyprus as the final solution", still do not advocate war, because they believe, pragmatically, that from a war we have everything to lose and nothing to gain. (You are aware that one possible result of a war could be the extinction of any remaining Hellenism in Cyprus, are you not?) On the contrary, most GCs feel that the area in which "we could win over the Turks" is diplomacy, and especially the fact that Turkey is trying to join the EU and therefore must make concessions in order to be in line with EU requirements.


When there is a will, there is always a way!
Certainly not with the defeatist and fatalistic attitude that your above question is reflecting!
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Postby cannedmoose » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:36 pm

DO NOT FORGET 1974! wrote:
Alexandros Lordos wrote:- Putting aside for the moment the question of whether war is morally right or wrong, how feasible do you see a victory of the Greek/GC side over the Turkish/TC side on the military field, given that in terms of population and surface area Turkey is 5 times greater than Greece and Turkey is 5 times closer to Cyprus than Greece is?

Most GCs, even those who want a "purely Greek Cypriot Cyprus as the final solution", still do not advocate war, because they believe, pragmatically, that from a war we have everything to lose and nothing to gain. (You are aware that one possible result of a war could be the extinction of any remaining Hellenism in Cyprus, are you not?) On the contrary, most GCs feel that the area in which "we could win over the Turks" is diplomacy, and especially the fact that Turkey is trying to join the EU and therefore must make concessions in order to be in line with EU requirements.


When there is a will, there is always a way!
Certainly not with the defeatist and fatalistic attitude that your above question is reflecting!


It is notable that you did not answer Alexandros' questions. Is this because you know the answers yourself and find them too unpalatable to comment on?
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:47 pm

DO NOT FORGET 1974! wrote:Cyprus has always been one entity during its very long history. We have always been living in all the corners of Cyprus since the begging of our appearance on this island. We have always been evenly spread out in all the corners of this island. We also happened to have always been the vast majority of the people in this country. At times we were the only people in this island. We have marked every corner, every field and every stone with our existence and our civilisation. Which area of Cyprus doesn’t belong to us? Salamina? Soloi? The castles in Pentadaktilos? Kerynia? Apostolos Andreas? Kythrea? Lapithos? St. Varnavas? All of these areas, towns, villages, monuments, etc, are closely associated (inseparable) with our history, with our consciousness, with our identity and with our existence as people. Which one of all these and the many more that I didn’t mention, are you willing to trade in with the Turks forever? Who gave us such a right today, something that our ancestors did not do for millenniums of years now, to exchange them and permanently alienate our selves from them?

Our language has always been spoken in all corners of Cyprus for 3-4 millenniums. Who gave us such a right now, simply because the TURK invaded 30 years ago and forced us out of the north half of our country, to put our signature under a permanent settlement that will deprive us, our language and our culture to exist in the north part of Cyprus, something which did not happen for so many millenniums? Our forefathers suffered all the evils and inflictions upon them for centuries. They came under all kinds of brutal rulers. Yet they never gave up their land, their country, their language and their identity. They suffered with patience and dignity and they remained in this country, in all its 4 corners, and gave it to us to continue our existence. Who are we today to donate half of it to those who invaded 30 years ago, either in the form of a partition or in the form of a solution that will alienate us forever from the north? Who are we? Who gave us such a right? What value and Significance do the 30 years since 1974 have, in front of the 3 plus millenniums that we existed as people, there and here, north and south, east and west and everywhere in Cyprus? We must be ashamed to even thinκ about it, set aside to speak or negotiate it!

I am not against the TCs. I accept their right to exist in this country too. I accept their right to their culture, to their religion and to their language. I am not interested in their assimilation. I do not want to dominate them. What I am not willing to negotiate is my right to exist with dignity and pride in all 4 corners of my country and to exercise, develop and promote my culture and language freely, in all 4 corners of my country, like my ancestors did for so many millenniums.

The Cyprus problem is not only a matter of properties, lands, political and human rights, etc. It is equally a problem of historical consciousness and human and cultural dignity of our people.


I see nothing wrong with your vision. In fact, I agree absolutely. A solution has to safeguard the rights of all Cypriots to live anywhere in Cyprus, and the Annan Plan did not achieve this goal. Whatever safeguards there must be for the political equality of the Turkish Cypriots, should not erode the right of all Cypriots to live wherever they wish, and should not deprive refugees of the right of return.

DO NOT FORGET 1974! wrote:
Alexandros Lordos wrote:- Putting aside for the moment the question of whether war is morally right or wrong, how feasible do you see a victory of the Greek/GC side over the Turkish/TC side on the military field, given that in terms of population and surface area Turkey is 5 times greater than Greece and Turkey is 5 times closer to Cyprus than Greece is?

Most GCs, even those who want a "purely Greek Cypriot Cyprus as the final solution", still do not advocate war, because they believe, pragmatically, that from a war we have everything to lose and nothing to gain. (You are aware that one possible result of a war could be the extinction of any remaining Hellenism in Cyprus, are you not?) On the contrary, most GCs feel that the area in which "we could win over the Turks" is diplomacy, and especially the fact that Turkey is trying to join the EU and therefore must make concessions in order to be in line with EU requirements.


When there is a will, there is always a way!
Certainly not with the defeatist and fatalistic attitude that your above question is reflecting!


You are welcome to adopt a braver attitude than me, but, like Leonidas at Thermopylae, you should also be prepared to accept that the end result of your struggle might be death and the extinction of Cypriot hellenism, not necessarily victory. Are you prepared to accept this eventuality?

Anyway, I am not suggesting that we compromise from our essential goals, which goals you correctly described above. I just believe that we are far more likely to achieve these goals through diplomacy than through war.
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