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What do you think??

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby metecyp » Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:23 pm

What we have is Republic of Cyprus that should have jurisdiction over the whole island. If you don't want that and you want to support the illegal occupation and keep the stolen land and be our enemy thats your choice.

I have no interest in keeping the stolen land whatsoever. I would be happy if a bicommunal government where two communities are represented had jurisdiction over the whole island. Unfortunately, I am not represented in the RC, so its juristiction means juristiction of GCs on me and I cannot accept that.
So according to you the reason of the occupation is that an 18% minority is not politically equal with the 78% majority? Such a lame excuse not even the Americans would give to occupy another country!

No, one of the reasons of the occupation is to stop "I'm the majority, I can do whatever I want" mentality. We still see the same mentality today in one way or another.
Why you don't cut the crap and admit that what you want is to keep the land that you stole from us as your own using the military power of Turkey?

All I want is a structure where I'll be represented for sure, not on the paper like RC. I don't want to be part of Turkey, or I don't want to keep someone else's land. You're the one that needs to admit how you think TCs are mere 18% minority and they don't deserve nothing more than 18% in any way. You also need to admit how you don't really believe in RC, only reason why you support it is because it's practically Hellenic Republic.

By the way, don't you find it ironic that your big leader, Papadopoulos, was one of the people who rejected the idea of Republic of Cyprus in 1959? Now, he seems like the biggest supporter of it, i wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that there haven't been no TCs in RC for 40 years.
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Postby Cypriana22 » Sun Jun 13, 2004 11:45 pm

The Annan Plan is the most unjust and biased Plan ever created. It was created to please Turkey ,the Americans and Brits. How would the Turkish Cypriots like it, if they wanted to move to the south and they would have no voting rights and no Human Rights in their own country? Why would we Greeks accept a Plan that ignores the majority of the country?May be the Greeks in Konstantinoupolis should start behaving like the Turks in Cyprus? Oh !! I forgot,most of them when kicked out of the country by the Turks simply because they are Greeks. Some Democracy and Human Rights!!
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Postby Piratis » Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:42 am

I have no interest in keeping the stolen land whatsoever. I would be happy if a bicommunal government where two communities are represented had jurisdiction over the whole island. Unfortunately, I am not represented in the RC, so its juristiction means juristiction of GCs on me and I cannot accept that.


If you are not represented thats your choice. Stop the occupation and you will be represented as you should according to RC law. Even with the occupation still going on you, like me, can vote and stand for elections.

No, one of the reasons of the occupation is to stop "I'm the majority, I can do whatever I want" mentality. We still see the same mentality today in one way or another.


OK, lets see what this "I can do whatever I want" is. Did we say that we want to kill TC? Did we say that you will not be allowed to talk your language? Did we say that we will restrict you from any of your human rights? NO. So the mentality is "I am the majority and I take decisions, respecting the 100% of all minorities and taking seriously into account what minorities (especially the big ones) say." This is simply DEMOCRACY and yes, we have and we will forever continue to have a democratic mentality and nothing will ever change this.

You're the one that needs to admit how you think TCs are mere 18% minority and they don't deserve nothing more than 18% in any way.


what do you mean by mere 18% minority? Is the 18% wrong? Are you 19% or 20% or what? If you want we can simply do a new census in the whole island and then we can get a precise number. Or you know that you are 18% and you want 50%?? It is like a party that in todays elections got 18% and therefore 1 seat in the EU parliament will say that we have to give them 3 seats and not just a "mere" 1 seat.
What you ask for is beyond democracy.



By the way, don't you find it ironic that your big leader, Papadopoulos, was one of the people who rejected the idea of Republic of Cyprus in 1959? Now, he seems like the biggest supporter of it, i wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that there haven't been no TCs in RC for 40 years.


I didn't know that he rejected it, but if he did thats a huge plus for him. With british bases + veto power to an 18% minority etc the Republic of Cyprus was fragile and we all know what happened. I guess they convinced the rest of GC that this was "the best we could get" and thats why they accepted it. It is really ridiculous that now some people support the Annan plan that is 1000 times more fragile and dysfunctional than RC.
If for RC in 59 you had to be a great politician to for see the problems that such solution would bring, in 2004 you have to be stupid not to be able to for see the problems that Annan plan solution would bring and that its our signature to the permanent partition of Cyprus (but not immediately - only after our economy is destroyed and several years full of problems pass).

After 1960 we support RC because we are citizens of RC. Thats all we have and we are going to support it because it is our country. If you agree for something better than RC then of course we would agree. But we will never agree for something that is 1000 times worst than RC, because as I said you don't need to be a great politician to foresee that such thing only problems will bring and nothing more.
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Postby Bananiot » Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:09 am

We should be extremely careful when pondering on history. The Greeks of Constantinopolis, the Greeks of Asia Minor, the Turks of Crete (we Greeks tend to conveniently forget about them) etc, are sorry aspects of our history. Both sides have shown at times uncompromising cruelness and it is high time we put the bad past behind us and open a new chapter. Europe is giving us a splendid environment in which to do just that. After all, Greeks and Turks share so many common things. We can become great friends and allies and this is the only way forward. Enough blood has been shed, lets work together to make this corner of the world a cradle of peace and friendship.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:54 pm

The side that continues to violate our human rights and illegally occupy our land is the Turkish one.
We were very compromising and we accepted that an 18% minority will have its own federal state.
If they are not satisfied then we will continue to be enemies. If they expect that we will bent to f*ck us just to be friends with them they can forget about it. If they want peace they have to compromise - period.
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Postby metecyp » Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:13 am

If they want peace they have to compromise - period

I can't help you if you don't consider the following as compromises.

- 1/3 of the populatioin being refugees
- 40.000 soldiers reducing to 650
- Giving up on the seperate state claim
- Accepting a significant number of GCs to live in the Turkish state
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Postby Piratis » Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:14 am

- 1/3 of the populatioin being refugees

Most of those are settlers that should have never been in Cyprus, and all of them are living in stolen property. Giving back what you stole is a compromise??

- 40.000 soldiers reducing to 650

And 100s of thousands others just minutes away with the right to intervene in (the demilitarized) Cyprus whenever they see fit. It makes little difference.

- Giving up on the seperate state claim

No you don't. The Annan partition plan gives you a separate state with just an association with us. An association that is so fragile that you can brake whenever you feel like (by creating the right excuses - I am sure you will have no problem with this).

- Accepting a significant number of GCs to live in the Turkish state

It is a basic human right for those people to return. What if I say that we made a "compromise" to allow you to talk Turkish? Come on, get real.
In this case we are the ones who made a compromise by accepting that not all refugees will be able to return and get all their properties back.
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Postby metecyp » Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:09 am

f for RC in 59 you had to be a great politician to for see the problems that such solution would bring,

Or you had to be a greedy nationalist pig that only cared about your own interests...
in 2004 you have to be stupid not to be able to for see the problems that Annan plan solution would bring

I agree that there're definetely risks for both communities with plan's implementation. However, you have to take risks to gain something. Nothing could be worse than today.
and that its our signature to the permanent partition of Cyprus (but not immediately - only after our economy is destroyed and several years full of problems pass).

I would rather experience a bad solution in my life time than a non-solution or a solution after I die.
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Postby Piratis » Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:51 am

I will leave behind your offensive comments about people that you simply do not agree with and move to the next point:

I agree that there're definitely risks for both communities with plan's implementation. However, you have to take risks to gain something. Nothing could be worse than today.


With the general idea that “you have to take risks to gain something” I agree, and I never said that we should not take risks.
The problem is that we have two different sides of view. Personally I perfectly understand your side of view, and as I said many times if I was a TC I would vote “yes” too. Unfortunately you don’t want to understand our side of view.
Let me try explain once more.

Lets see how the two sides view your two phrases “you have to take risks to gain something” and “Nothing could be worse than today.”

The TC side.
What they have is an unrecognized state which might seem to be autonomous but they know themselves that is under the total control of Turkey, not so good economy, embargos, they don’t know where the future is taking them and therefore they are is some insecurity about their future.

With Annan plan they give up some land (which was not theirs in the first place but anyways) but the people affected by this are a minority among them. This minority can not decide the result of a referendum. (I remind you that about 35% did vote against the plan). This is the only “significant” compromise, since Turkey maintains some of their troops and the right to intervene, and that Turkey reduces the number of troops is actually something that TCs wanted too.

With Annan plan they would get the recognition as an independent autonomous entity within Cyprus. With such a solution they would be more autonomous than before, since Turkey’s control would be reduced. All embargos end, and a lot of financial aid comes to them to rebuild their economy. Whats even better is that without having to work for it, they suddenly become EU members, and since they are from the poorest regions they would be on the receiving end for many years.

In the event that “United Cyprus” brakes down, they loose almost nothing from what they gained with the Annan plan. Since the Annan plan requires agreement from them for everything, if they wish they can force “united Cyprus” to dissolve, without actually doing anything illegal.

The GC side:
They live in a recognized state that represents the whole island but part of it is under occupation and the island is effectively partitioned. Their economy is good, and now they are within EU and they feel more secure and more safe about their future. They have a big number of refugees that want to return or regain control of their properties.

With Annan plan they receive some land back, and a promise that some refugees will return and some property will be given back. (these refugees are only a minority within GCs)

At the same time they “sign” and accept the permanent partition of Cyprus, they relinquish many of their rights and enter into an association with another, poorer, state where a lot of their tax money will end up. They give up democracy, since an 18% minority is promoted to 50% power. Their good economy is almost certainly going to become worst, and the time to recover might be a couple or several years. Even worst, they are now less secure, since Turkey maintains their troops and has the right to intervene to the whole Cyprus whenever they see fit.

In the event that “United Cyprus” collapses, they are left with a destroyed economy (at best, I will not even count the possibility of another Turkish invasion – since they have the right, they can find the excuse if they want), almost no return of refugees in the other state (and even if some of them went their, they will be now forced to leave again), and a final an permanent partition of Cyprus.


So, “you have to take risks to gain something” means that TC have to risk almost nothing. Even those people that will be relocated, they will be relocated after a new home is build for them. And this home will be build by either GC or EU money. Even if “united Cyprus” collapses they again lost nothing compared to what they have now.
It is like a poor man giving one cent to buy almost all the tickets of a lottery. In the worst case instead of winning the grand price of 1 million, they will win the second or third price, of 500 or 200 thousands. That’s a lot more than the 1 cent they bet, and even a lot more than what they have now.

On the other hand, what we can gain is only a part of what we rightfully own. And to gain this part we have to pay its weight in gold. We have to give up democracy, security, many of our human rights, and sacrifice our good economy. Even worst we don’t get what we paid for immediately (like you do), we get a paper that is written on it that we should get it in some time in the future. This is already worst than what we have today. Remember that gains (profits) come after you subtract the cost from the revenues. In our case the cost is much greater than the revenues (and even worst: the paper that says that we will receive these revenues in the future) .
All these even before calculating the risk! So if everything goes according to the plan we will be worst off, and if everything collapses we will be way worst off.

TCs: Gaining a lot OR gaining even more.
GCs: Loosing a lot OR loosing even more.
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Postby metecyp » Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:12 am

After living under embargos for 40 years, after living in a state that nobody recognizes for 20 years, after being denied of the decision process in Cyprus for 40 years, after not having a true state of their own for 40 years, don't you think that TCs deserve to gain a little more??

The problem is that you consider the land that TCs control right now as "stolen". So when they give those lands back, it's not a compromise. On the other hand, RoC that has been solely under GC control for 40 years is not stolen for some reason. So according to you, when TCs don't actually "give up" land (it wasn't theirs anyway), GCs give up on their international recognized RoC.

You take the situation in the south as granted. You act as if there's nothing wrong about the structure in the south. The only problem is the invasion and occupation.

Anyway, I'm not going to continue more because I know you won't change your mind. But in any solution, TCs will gain more than GCs. This is a fact simply because TCs lost a lot in the last 40 years.
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