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France says Turkey must recognise Cyprus before talks

Benefits and problems from the EU membership.

Postby -mikkie2- » Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:08 pm

Erol,

You have a habit of belittling peoples comments.

The process of negotiating the 35 chapters is not a process of having meetings in Brussels but involves each member state being able to monitor Turkey's progress under each chapter. This will require member states to have representations in Turkey in order to observe that she is indeed meeting her obligations.

It is not 'moving the goalposts' for Turkey to actully put into practice what she signs up to. Cyprus for example has the 3rd largest shipping fleet in the EU. This is a major interest for the EU that Cypriot registered vessels should be able to go about their business without hindrance. Clearly Turkey hinders Cypriot registered vessles which goes against the spirit of the protocol and against the fundamental founding principles of the EU.

Functional recognition and diplomatic recognition. What is the difference? Just the opening of an embassy in Ankara? Well woopy do! Functional recognition is what counts and Turkey will have to give that irrespective of whether she gets anything in return for it.

You beleive that if Turkey is forced to chose between recognising and legitimise the RoC as it now exists and as the sole government for all of Cyprus (essentialy abandoning the TRNC and TC) or abandoning EU accession - that they will choose the former. I do not believe they will do this or even can do this without risking political turmoil in Turkey.


The Republic of Cyprus exists and it is legitimate. Only 1 country in the world thinks the opposite and that is Turkey. It is up to Turkey to show her European credentials not the other way around. If she walks away from the EU then fine. So be it. But if you think the TC community will exist in the north of Cyprus then you will be in for a shock. The TC's will VANISH under Turkish control and outside the EU. You have to stop and think about what is actually in the best interests of your community. At the moment you are not masters of your own destiny. The GC's at the moment are. Even if we have partition we will still be our own masters whilst you will be assimilated into the Turkish nation with your identity diminishing even further.

It is perfectly possible for Turkey to start acession talks with only a 'functional' recognition of the current RoC that preculdes full formal political recognition pending a comprehensive agreed solution in Cyprus, provided of course that the RoC choses to not try and force it's maximal demands on Turkey and TC and in the process 'risk all' but accepts that an agreed negotiatied process of give and take is the right way to solve the Cyprus problem (and in doing so remove the ultimate block on Turkish accession that is due to take 15years +)


As opposed to the maximalist demands of Turkey! Where is the spirit of cooperation and comprmise from Turkey?
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Postby fi » Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:15 pm

Well I said it before, entering the E.U. means making a lot of sacrifices (like all the 10 new countries have done and all the 15 countries before are doing).

Turkey should get off its high horse and come down to earth. It's ridiculous to only accept/want the good things. If you want to enter in a union where Cyprus is in and is one of your 25 negotiating partners you can't go around saying it doesn't exist.

There is absolutely no chance Turkey can begin negotiations without accepting ROC as the legal government to the entire island (unless of course a solution is found).

I think the EU partners are getting annoyed by Turkey's stand.

As for racism it's the EU that made Turkey pass laws to protect minorities within Turkey which beforehand didn't have even the right to be taught their own language.
Last edited by fi on Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby brother » Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:16 pm

But if you think the TC community will exist in the north of Cyprus then you will be in for a shock. The TC's will VANISH under Turkish control and outside the EU. You have to stop and think about what is actually in the best interests of your community. At the moment you are not masters of your own destiny. The GC's at the moment are. Even if we have partition we will still be our own masters whilst you will be assimilated into the Turkish nation with your identity diminishing even further.



I actually agree with this statement and this is the case as we speak imo.
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Postby erolz » Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:53 pm

-mikkie2- wrote:Erol,

You have a habit of belittling peoples comments.


I have a habbit of presenting my views and why I hold them. If that comes accross to you as an attempt to belittle others (which is not my intent or motivation the vast majority of the time) I can only appologise for that.

-mikkie2- wrote:The process of negotiating the 35 chapters is not a process of having meetings in Brussels but involves each member state being able to monitor Turkey's progress under each chapter. This will require member states to have representations in Turkey in order to observe that she is indeed meeting her obligations.


I do not see how this requires Turkey to accept full recognition of the RoC as it stands today. Why can not functional recognition meet this need?

-mikkie2- wrote:It is not 'moving the goalposts' for Turkey to actully put into practice what she signs up to. Cyprus for example has the 3rd largest shipping fleet in the EU. This is a major interest for the EU that Cypriot registered vessels should be able to go about their business without hindrance. Clearly Turkey hinders Cypriot registered vessles which goes against the spirit of the protocol and against the fundamental founding principles of the EU.


It is not a case of putting into practice what she signs up for. She should (and I believe will) implement the accords on trade that she has now signed. That is not the same thing as saying she has to recognise formaly the RoC and this was NOT a requirement on her to start the acession process (the former was). To say the later is now a requirment when it was AGREED previoulsy that it was not is moving the goal posts. I do not see how anyone can maintain it is not unless they are only interested in propaganda positions aimed at securing maximum demands with no compromise on their part and no interest in reality.

-mikkie2- wrote:Functional recognition and diplomatic recognition. What is the difference? Just the opening of an embassy in Ankara? Well woopy do! Functional recognition is what counts and Turkey will have to give that irrespective of whether she gets anything in return for it.


The difference is massive. Full political recognition which once granted can not be resinded require Turkey to abanandon the TRNC and TC entirely - removing their recognition of the TRNC and reversing their entire policy on Cyprus and total capitulation of Turkey to GC maximalist demands in Cyprus - and I believe you know this?

If you read the very carefully written statement made by Turkey that she put out when she signed the protocal it is clear that she is prepared to give the RoC 'functional recognition'. If this is what you want and demand as a precondition to starting talks as far as I am concerned you have it. However it seems to me that the RoC is saying that even if you behave as if you recognise the RoC without actually recognising it formaly (and thus abandon TRNC and TC entirely) and despite the fact that this was not the agreed requirment - then you can not start accession talks.

-mikkie2- wrote:The TC's will VANISH under Turkish control and outside the EU. You have to stop and think about what is actually in the best interests of your community. At the moment you are not masters of your own destiny. The GC's at the moment are. Even if we have partition we will still be our own masters whilst you will be assimilated into the Turkish nation with your identity diminishing even further.


We know the risks posed to us (better than you do in all probability). If the TC have a stark choice between no effecitve say in their own country at the hands of GC that have in the past treated us with contempt as a community and violated our rights as a community and indivduals or no effecitve say in their own country at the hands of Turkey that has defended us polticaly and militarily in the past we would I believe chose the later as we have always done.

It is perfectly possible for Turkey to start acession talks with only a 'functional' recognition of the current RoC that preculdes full formal political recognition pending a comprehensive agreed solution in Cyprus, provided of course that the RoC choses to not try and force it's maximal demands on Turkey and TC and in the process 'risk all' but accepts that an agreed negotiatied process of give and take is the right way to solve the Cyprus problem (and in doing so remove the ultimate block on Turkish accession that is due to take 15years +)


-mikkie2- wrote:As opposed to the maximalist demands of Turkey! Where is the spirit of cooperation and comprmise from Turkey?


Turkeys position has moved radically in regard to Cyprus. Where as before they had a position that the matter was solved and finished in 74 and there were two seprate independent states in Cyprus, they now accept and stated their comitment to an agreed negotiatied solution under the auspices of the UN. Where as before they refused to sign or implement the trade agrements with the RoC they have now signed them and agreed to implement with the proviso that this does not represent formal recognition of the RoC. These are real and significant moves by Turkey and yet they are written off as nothing by yourself apparently.

In return the RoC has shown what compromise? She still insits that Turkey recognise the RoC as the sole legitimate government of all of Cyprus. She still insists that Turkey withdraws from Cyprus and abandons the TC polticialy to the 'mercy' of the GC community - and not within the framework of an agreed settlement. She still insits that the agreed (by the RoC included) conditions that were put on Turkey for the start of accession should actualy now be changed, after that agrement was made and extended to total capitualation of Turkeys position on Cyprus and regardless of an agreed settlemenbt in Cprus.

Thats how it looks to me.

The RoC is playing a dangerous game - egged on by anti Turkish entry to the EU forces. She is risking all realistic hope of an agreed settlement in Cyprus based on compromise from both sides (and all that will mean for all cypriots) in the persuit of maximalist GC desires - as she has done many times in the past to all our cost. Thats my view.
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Postby magikthrill » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:20 pm

I wonder if GCs were retartd enough to vote for the A Plan whether Turkey would still be in such a mess as for sa the EU is concerned?
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Postby brother » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:30 pm

I think they would as there is still the 'Aegean issue' and of course 'the alleged Armenian genocide' for them still to sort out. :wink:
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Postby KYPROS-EINAI-ELLHNIKH » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:49 pm

Turkey (( * wrote:What I believe will happen is that the Turkish public's patience will be over, and Turkey will stop being a candidate. But the EU will be in a very hard situation because in reality they don't want to take Turkey in but they don't want it going opposite direction as well.Then we'll see what will happen...


Is that a threat? Because I assure you, although the English are pander to people like you ordinary French and German people (as well as all Eastern Europeans), will not take threat so kindly, we know you plan to try and take over Europe. I tell you now....
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Postby Turkey (( * » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:52 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: you are such a paranoid!!!You just showed how paranoid and scared you are!!What do we have to do with Europe man, in 10 years Asia will be the powerful continent, why would we want Europe!!
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Postby KYPROS-EINAI-ELLHNIKH » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:58 pm

Turkey (( * wrote::lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: you are such a paranoid!!!You just showed how paranoid and scared you are!!What do we have to do with Europe man, in 10 years Asia will be the powerful continent, why would we want Europe!!


Lol, try uniting Asia then, Asia will never have an 'Asian Union' perhaps some loose Economic Confederation. But never like Political EU. Think about it, how do you unite India Pakistan, China Japan etc?
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Postby fi » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:30 pm

Europeans gave up war/threats for cooperation. That is why the EU was formed.

Turkey doesn't seem to be able to think European and with that mentality does not have place in Europe.

ps: What Aegean issue does Turkey have??? Greece isn't claiming Imvros/Tenedos and Smyrna etc.
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