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Documents on Armenian Massacre of Muslims in French Archives

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Documents on Armenian Massacre of Muslims in French Archives

Postby theg » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:27 am

Documents on Armenian Massacre of Muslims in French Archives
By Erdal Sen
Published: Friday, August 05, 2005
zaman.com


France, a vocal opponent of Turkey's European Union membership, is also a fierce defendant of the alleged Armenian genocide. Lying at the center of the Armenian Diaspora, France frequently brings up the genocide allegations in international or domestic platforms.

France and other countries that have accepted the genocide thesis repeatedly block Turkey's call for a debate to be conducted by historians. Moreover Ottoman archives are deemed "biased". In response to this attitude, the Turkish Historical Association (TTV) opened the Ottoman Archives to the public and has conducted research about the topic in the French, British, Russian and American archives.


Within the framework of the project that concluded recently, the documents obtained from French archives are to be compiled. These documents include diplomatic correspondence that refers to Armenian massacres of the Muslim population within Ottoman territory. Secret official documents refer to Armenian rioting activity and to plans to cause panic among the Muslim population through assassinations which date from well before the deportation decision. Correspondence conducted with French Foreign Ministry contains information that Armenians were plotting to kill Enver and Talat Pashas and that their assassinations would be realized in contact with the Entente Powers. Concerning the documents found in the French archives, TTV Chairman Professor Dr. Yusuf Halacoglu comments, "the reason why our call for a debate conducted by a commission of historians was refused now has come to light."


According to the TTV's examination, 479 documents were brought to Turkey from France after they were photocopied. Most of the diplomatic documents bear a "confidential" sign on them. TTV will publish the documents in three volumes, which give the opportunity to evaluate the problems from the points of view of the Ottomans and the Armenians during World War I. The documents shed light on the pre- and post-deportation period whose original and Turkish versions will be published separately. The exchange of arms and ammunition between the French and the revolting Armenians are available in French archive documents. One of the documents, which best summarizes the actions of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire is the 14 May 1915 dated correspondence telling about the "killing of 6,000 citizens by Armenians in Van region". This document was sent to the French Foreign Ministry by Russia's Paris Embassy. Another telegram, dated 8 May, 1915, filed by French Foreign Ministry proves that triple-entente "benefited from" Armenians. The document reveals that "Armenians who revolted in Van killed many Muslims and civil servants".


Speaking to Zaman about their studies regarding the international achieve studies, Halacoglu claims that most of the countries that prosecute Turkey about the Armenian genocide now, benefited from the Armenians during the World War I. Halacoglu said they proved this with the documents they obtained as he added: "According to the Ottoman archives, we had formerly announced the massacre of Muslim public by Armenians. The documents that we have brought from other countries prove these massacres. Armenians' riots, massacres and plans can be seen in French documents as well, which played a role in the Ottoman's taking a decision for Armenian deportation."


Armenian revolt


Following is a statement sent by Russian Embassy in Paris to French Foreign Ministry on 14 May 1915:


"According to a telegraph by Sazanov to Iswoybky, a letter pinned on a harbinger's cloth sent by Van's Armenian colony to inform Tbilisi Armenians says: 'About 6,000 were killed in the Eastern Anatolian province Van, The Van and Catak defense still continued, the cannon balls did not cause much damage in Van but urgent help is needed.' This letter is dated 28 April 1915. Russia's Embassies in Paris and London take conveying the above information to the both cabinets as a mission."


Another Seon-signed telegraph from Salonica to French Foreign Ministry on 8 May 1915 says:


"Armenians have revolted in Van. They killed Muslims and civil servants there. They blew up municipal building and seized the city for 16 days. Troops sent from Erzurum following the events took back the city and killed Armenians. 2,500 prominent Armenians were arrested in Istanbul upon these events. Several bombs and documents were found at their homes. It should be admitted that intention of Armenian rebel societies are to kill Enver and Talat Pashas in connection with the Triple Entente and to create panic among the Muslims by plotting assassinations with dynamite."




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by theg
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Postby ChomskyFan » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:37 am

Theg I fail to understand your own personal consensus on the matter, firstly you say that The mass Genocide of the Armenians never happened, then you post an article concerning Armenian killing of Muslims, insinuating that you agree there was a genocide, but there were precursors that somehow justified, or gave reason for it? Let me put such a view into modern Context, imagine for a moment that I posted a similar article, only this article came from a White Nationalist website and went into some 'detail' about The Jewish role in The German Business Sector pre-World War 2. Now imagine again that this article was designed to give an 'insight' into rationalizing the Holocaust from a German perspective, due to Jewish dominance of Business in Weimar Germany, and The Jewish role in the Treaty of Versailles. Would such an article, attempting to rationalize the Holocaust, the deaths of around 6 Million Jews, be acceptable? Sure, it would be my right to post it, but would it be acceptable from a Humanistic standpoint? I think you need to study your own past carefully my friend, because such ignorance only begets more hate. You do not realize how many Armenians you have offended by trying to offer some crude rationalization of why perhaps over a Million Armenians were slaughtered. Yet ironically you expect understanding and compassion for the Muslim 'victims', and we know all too well about the role of the religiously fervent Turkish Muslims living in and near the the Armenians Communities in the East (most of it was galvanized by jealousy, Armenians being a hard working bunch, dominated the Turkish Economy, something the Young Turks despised as well). Their role is detailed in an excerpt from Reverend K. Balakian's 'The Armenian Golgotha' below:

"To save shell and powder, the gendarmerie commander in charge of this large convoy had gathered 10,000-12,000 Turkish peasants and other villagers, and armed with “hatchets, meat cleavers, saddler’s knives, cudgels, axes, pickaxes, shovels”, the latter attacked and for some 4-5 hours mercilessly butchered the victims while crying “Oh God, Oh God” (Allah, Allah). In a moment of rare candor, this gendarmerie commander confided to the priest-author, whom he did not expect to survive the mass murder, that after each massacre episode, he spread his little prayer rug and performed the namaz, the ritual of worship, centered on prayer, with a great sense of redemption in the service of Almighty God."

I would ask you show some humanity in this issue, your position is tantamount (at the moment anyway, it seems to shift faster and quicksand) to justification for a Holocaust.
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Postby Murtaza » Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:08 am

Chom, If 6000 people killed by armenians, you cannot say,they are not still rebelled. What Turkey said is, there are mass killing but It made by two-side. 6000 death shows,what they said is right.(If this article is true)

But, I dont think you are a neutral man.

think you need to study your own past carefully my friend, because such ignorance only begets more hate. You do not realize how many Armenians you have offended by trying to offer some crude rationalization of why perhaps over a Million Armenians were slaughtered. Yet ironically you expect understanding and compassion for the Muslim 'victims',

So why are you waiting us some compassion for christian victims? I think you are complately a blind hate, life is life no matter christian or muslim, both should deserve compassion.

So I ask you some humnity in this issue,If you know what is meaning of this, because that turks killed are also human. If you realy care history, learn your history, your genocide against Turks, albanians and bulgarians.Did I miss any of your neighbor? It looks like you genocided all of them.
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Postby Murtaza » Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:27 am

Ah macedonians, you killed them too.
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Postby ChomskyFan » Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:32 am

Murtaza wrote:Ah macedonians, you killed them too.


The term 'Macedonian' is kind of a Historical Paradox, you see, for present day Macedonians to have any connection with Ancient Macedonia, they must have a Time Machine, Slavic immigration to Greece only began in the late 8th Century AD and even then it didn't last long and they had all but returned to their ancestral Homes in the Northern Balkans around late 11th Century AD.
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Postby ChomskyFan » Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:38 am

Murtaza wrote:Chom, If 6000 people killed by armenians, you cannot say,they are not still rebelled. What Turkey said is, there are mass killing but It made by two-side. 6000 death shows,what they said is right.(If this article is true)


The scale of the killing of the Armenians was on a far greater scale than that of the Muslims, who deaths are purposefully over-exagerrated by the Turkish Government. Of course, both sides committed crimes, but at least the Armenians had some kind of rationalization, it was war, a fight for self-determination, The Genocide had no reason apart from the madness of teh Young Turks.

But, I dont think you are a neutral man.


Of course! Who is, after all, entirely 'neutral'? Certainly not you, not me to some extent, not really anyone.

So why are you waiting us some compassion for christian victims? I think you are complately a blind hate, life is life no matter christian or muslim, both should deserve compassion.


The difference between the Armenian and purposefully over-exagerrated Muslim killings is that Armenian killings were pre-meditated mass Genocide on an Industrial Scale, and also that Armenians were exercising their right to self determination for an independent State, which began an awful 'blood feud' between the two communities. The Turks were exercisign no such right, rather, they were exercising the ultra-nationalist dreams of the Young Turks.

So I ask you some humnity in this issue,If you know what is meaning of this, because that turks killed are also human. If you realy care history, learn your history, your genocide against Turks, albanians and bulgarians.Did I miss any of your neighbor? It looks like you genocided all of them.


The same could be said of Turkey, Kurds (depopulation of 3000 villages), Syrians (The Arab Uprising and before), Armenians (as mentioned), Serbs (Under the Period of Ottoman Yoke and especially after the 1st Uprising), The Greeks of Asia Minor, The Russians around the Black Sea Coast Area, the list goes on and on......

Regarding Greece, my thoughts on this matter are professed in an earlier post in the Cyprus Problem Thread.
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Postby Murtaza » Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:52 am

did you realy read article?


"According to a telegraph by Sazanov to Iswoybky, a letter pinned on a harbinger's cloth sent by Van's Armenian colony to inform Tbilisi Armenians says: 'About 6,000 were killed in the Eastern Anatolian province Van, The Van and Catak defense still continued, the cannon balls did not cause much damage in Van but urgent help is needed.' This letter is dated 28 April 1915. Russia's Embassies in Paris and London take conveying the above information to the both cabinets as a mission."



Did you see any word related Turks? This is what telegraph say. 6000 is their number not us.

The scale of the killing of the Armenians was on a far greater scale than that of the Muslims, who deaths are purposefully over-exagerrated by the Turkish Government. Of course, both sides committed crimes, but at least the Armenians had some kind of rationalization, it was war, a fight for self-determination, The Genocide had no reason apart from the madness of teh Young Turks.

Reality is, They said we did nothing, They killed us like jews.and It was a war for us too, what do you think we are doing at that times?

The difference between the Armenian and purposefully over-exagerrated Muslim killings is that Armenian killings were pre-meditated mass Genocide on an Industrial Scale, and also that Armenians were exercising their right to self determination for an independent State, which began an awful 'blood feud' between the two communities. The Turks were exercisign no such right, rather, they were exercising the ultra-nationalist dreams of the Young Turks.

This is again wrong, should I remind you , All minorities supported young Turks? And they helped young Turks against Patisah? So They should share crime of young Turks too. There is no evident who show, this killings repremediated.


'blood feud' between the two communities.


This is excatly what we said, we dont refuse armenians death, but we refuse this deaths are premediated, this is a mass killing between two communities.
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Postby fi » Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:00 pm

There were 1.5 million Armenians killed!!!!! That is genocide.
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Postby cannedmoose » Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:13 pm

The number killed has always been a finger in the air exercise, in reality no-one has fully documented what happened because of the turmoil that was taking place in the region, which effectively amounted to civil war and anarchy, and because the Turkish authorities have attempted to suppress investigation of the incidents ever since. The Armenian authorities have also sought to capitalise by inflating the numbers.

Doubtless, many hundreds of thousands of people died, but without a thorough investigation of the circumstances under which many of these people died, we'll never understand what happened in reality, much of what we understand today comes from heresay, sporadic on-the-ground contemporary reports and from myths.

If documents are found in the Turkish state archives that demonstrate a planned, systematic extermination of Armenians in Turkey, then it will warrant an apology certainly. Quite what Turkey could do beyond that I'm not entirely sure. The Turkish state as we know it today did not even exist in 1915 and none of the people responsible for conducting such a policy would be alive today. Reparations are also meaningless as very few of those who directly suffered will be alive now. So, an apology would certainly be in order, but beyond that, the best way to move forward would be to reestablish relations between Turkey and Armenia and progress as equal partners rather than eternal enemies. Maintaining hatred across generations helps noone, especially not the living.
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Postby erolz » Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:16 pm

fi wrote:There were 1.5 million Armenians killed!!!!! That is genocide.


Actualy genocide is not determined by 'numbers' by the intent of those comitting the killings. If the killings were done with the intent of subduing a revolt and protecting the state, it is not an act of genocide. If the intent was to wipe a given group off the face of the earth or force them to leave a region entirely then it is an act of genocide.

It seems to me this is the nub of the issue here. Armenians believe that what occured was part of a widescale planned and sanctioned (from the highest levels of ottoman / T goverment) attempt to anihilate the armenian fro the face of the earth or to force them from whole regions entirely. The Turkish state argues that there was no such premeditated intent.

In this regard arguments about numbers are meaningless. In determining if these events were genocide or not, it is the issue of intent and pre meditation that matters. Arguments about that numbers that seek to show intent or not are one thing. But arguments that there were X number of deaths therfore it is genocide are not valid imo (and if they were what would X be ? An absolute number. A % of given groups numbers? Where would the line be drawn etc etc)
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