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...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby Pyrpolizer » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:16 pm

Repulse your manifesto does not address or does vary vaguely major issues, like properties, rights to free settlement, movement and enterprise in other words basic human rights plus many other important things.
What striked me the most is your point #3 that will basically lead to one side trying to buy 1 voter from the other side, that would eventually lead to either a corrupt system or no president.

Of course my intention is not to criticize you, your effort is appreciated. But i think that on such an important issue it would be nice if the major contributors of this forum presented their own solution proposals. So I will go ahead in the next few days and present mine.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby bill cobbett » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:24 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:Repulse your manifesto does not address or does vary vaguely major issues, like properties, rights to free settlement, movement and enterprise in other words basic human rights plus many other important things.
What striked me the most is your point #3 that will basically lead to one side trying to buy 1 voter from the other side, that would eventually lead to either a corrupt system or no president.

Of course my intention is not to criticize you, your effort is appreciated. But i think that on such an important issue it would be nice if the major contributors of this forum presented their own solution proposals. So I will go ahead in the next few days and present mine.


... in easy to understand bullet points form ...???
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby Get Real! » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:52 am

repulsewarrior wrote:...it's the manifesto thingy, again

For the love of God... someone lock him up or something! :?
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:29 am

3. the legislature for the federal government is Bicameral, it is the Upper House that provides leadership, having seats equally divided among Turkish and Greek representatives where a majority of seats must be won by a leader who becomes President. and a Lower House which is elected by Population, as Independants representing sober second thinking, voting by consensus through a Speaker, they would also sit in Government Committees. (slight shades of the Annan plan)


...let us imagine only two parties are running in an election for the Presidency of the Republic's Legislature.

...let us also assume that one is a Party which has its foundation from the efforts of Turcophones and the other of Greeks.

i suggest that both will focus on Principals, and Universal Values to make their Platform, not ethnicity. they will to win, find Candidates (and raise money) as representatives of the membership Greeks and Turks, that reflect their aims. in essence, voters will seek this balance, at the Federal level of Government, naturally, as Individuals; their power as Persons, what is Greek and what is Turkish (and others possibly), don't forget, is expressed through the National Assembly, in which Territorial Jurisdiction, they choose to reside.

...let us assume that there are more than two Cypriot Constituencies; Greek, Turkish, Maronite, Armenian, Latin.

...let us assume there is one Latin, two Maronite, and three Armenian seats in the Upper House, of the (eg.)106 seats the rest evenly distributed as Greek, and Turkish.

the same two Parties wil serve the same motive as above, because it is natural to field the number of Candidates as there are seats; as a Greek, Turkish, etc., they will have to be likeable by others, and capable to express the concerns of (and to) their electorate.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:20 am

4. as such, a voter will vote thricely (voting once), from three seperate slates, so that the best representatives are elected by and for the voter's riding, they will vote for their Turkish Cypriot Representative and their Greek Cypriot Representative, as well as their Independant. Representative. (shades of the guy or was it the guy before that)


vp: http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus39688-90.html#p742105
Risk bells sound here, cross voting for a rep from the the other state could result in unwanted candidates being elected.


...so you see vp, from my previous post above, that you (like any Citizen of Cyprus) will vote from a set of slates, where on each, Parties can field Candidates, and each (slate) represents a Cypriot Constituency. you, as a Person, have within a Territorial Jurisdiction, the Liberty to have self-representation as a Turkish Cypriot (or a Greek Cypriot) always, because of the existence of the respective National Assemblies, and the ability to collect Taxes and to Act. but, the Freedom (and the Land under our feet) we all have to defend universally requires another set of considerations, and that as a State, this requires that we look at ourselves as Liberals, Conservative, Communist, etc., and, as Human Beings within this global context.

...the Lower House, in my mind, is very important because in the years to come it will give Cypriots, ordinary citizens who are well respected members of their electoral riding the chance to take a second look at Bills the Government wishes to pass, and the Public their views. many leaders in Politics will start their Civic service here, who in demonstrating the qualities of Statesmanship as the Independant Representative of a riding, will carry themselves accordingly when they must represent an ideology as well. it would be imaginable in the future, that regions may evolve, as populations increase, and change in demographics, that the Lower House will give a voice to significant elements of their populations as Persons, where the numbers warrant these distinct identities in groups, (other than Cypriot Constituencies) will express the special needs of these minorities if within the Constituencies they are ignored.

in the original manifesto i have included a sentence on the Lower House's special power, and that is to sit in Government Committees, where Bills are drafted. nothing can make the Government more transparent if there is this openess for dialog as Laws are developed, not just intent, but ethic will pass by a vote of a Legislature, regardless the Majority a President may possess in the Upper House.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:46 am

What would happen in situaitons of deadlock eg 50 vs 50? or 1 GC voter was not available, ı think we need minimums from each state


...deadlock: my fear is that many (too many) Parties will involve themselves as blocks, where they will seek to find niches in the electorate, fielding Candidates accordingly, because they are better organised than most. never with the intent to lead the House, if there are many of these niche Parties, forcing minority governments to offer them unreasonable power to sit in coalition. Urban/Rural stresses may be reflected, Ecology/Industry, as well as regional competition for the Government's attention, but more Democracy is not a bad thing generally, so the sword cuts both ways so to speak.

...it would be almost impossible for the Upper House to divide by ethnicity vp, i hope you have figured that out by now.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:42 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:Repulse your manifesto does not address or does vary vaguely major issues, like properties, rights to free settlement, movement and enterprise in other words basic human rights plus many other important things.
What striked me the most is your point #3 that will basically lead to one side trying to buy 1 voter from the other side, that would eventually lead to either a corrupt system or no president.

Of course my intention is not to criticize you, your effort is appreciated. But i think that on such an important issue it would be nice if the major contributors of this forum presented their own solution proposals. I am thinking of preparing such a proposal, but then again what's the point i have expressed my positions hundreds of times in this sub-forum...


Pyrpolizer, indeed there are elements which need little disscussion, such as Free Movement, Free Expression, and Free Association.

no President, as you suggest, is possible, and it would require another election to settle this issue without any other protocol for it, but the issue itself is mute, as i explained to vp, it is near impossible for the Upper House to split by ethnic lines. i must add however, that the Lower House voting by Consensus, can take this presence if a Bill is that offensive to them; any Bill which reflects a discrimination or distinction on a Cypriot Constituency, will receive the same scrutiny.

a Greek Party, cannot win Leadership of the House without a population to vote for them. thus, a Party like Elam may win some seats because they can target the electoral ridings where they have the greatest chances, and have a voice; naturally a Turkish equivalent will win some seats as well, but only Parties whose ideological scope goes beyond a Nationalistic will, as Cypriot Parties (if you will), have a chance to capture support from the population as a whole. indeed if these Parties become corrupt, an elitist oligarchy themselves, the opportunity for a fracturous House is increased, and their power is diminished as the disatisfaction of the Population expresses itself; again, not necessarily bad, just as a two edged sword, in the History of a State as a line of Governments, this function cuts both ways.

if you wouldn't mind Pyrpolizer, i will move this post to the manifesto thingy thread, and i would like you to comment point by point on the articles, as vp most graciously did, thank-you.


...from: http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus39688-100.html#p742146
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:03 am

...and to answer another of your questions P, what could be fairer, by choosing to live in the Territorial Jurisdiction of one Constituency or another, having a vote in its National Assembly, as any other voter toward sustaining this distinct identity, and the sevices it can provide. Persons can choose to live as a Minority or not, if you will, but their is always the State who protects Individual Rights; and while you receive service in one language or another first, there is recognition and respect for others.

cheers.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:09 am

a federal government must exist. OK
-a Turkish Cypriot constituent state must exist. OK
-a Greek Cypriot constituent state must exist. OK

thus the only conclusion i can make is that there is a need for Greeks to constitute a form of representation that completes this Agreement's very basis; a Greek Cypriot constituent state.

here are the rainbow lines i draw:

1. the federal government defines its Citizens as Individuals; by their residence. OK

2. the voting is democratic, all voters voting in the same way, all votes are given the same weight. OK

3. the legislature for the federal government is Bicameral, it is the Upper House that provides leadership, having seats equally divided among Turkish and Greek representatives where a majority of seats must be won by a leader who becomes President. and a Lower House which is elected by Population, as Independants representing sober second thinking, voting by consensus through a Speaker, they would also sit in Government Committees. (slight shades of the Annan plan)

What would happen in situaitons of deadlock eg 50 vs 50? or 1 GC voter was not available, ı think we need minimums from each state

4. as such, a voter will vote thricely (voting once), from three seperate slates, so that the best representatives are elected by and for the voter's riding, they will vote for their Turkish Cypriot Representative and their Greek Cypriot Representative, as well as their Independant. Representative. (shades of the guy or was it the guy before that)

Risk bells sound here, cross voting for a rep from the the other state could result in unwanted candidates being elected.

...do the math (for the Upper and Lower House), then assume larger populations and a different demographic, do the math again...

...then consider how over time a representative's experience and expertise can grow, and consider how this changing population is open to a representation in the future which will sustain Turkish and Greek identities by civic leaders of neither ethnicity.

5. the Turkish constituent state, and the Greek constituent state shall be equal, in that they each represent themselves as Persons in a National Assembly where their electorate is identified by their residence, and in that they obtian their Charter meeting the same criteria determined by the federal government which retains its Sovereignty while assigning territorial Jurisdiction.

Clarification necessary.

6. Bizonal shall define a geographic representation of our commitment to redressing the suffering of all displaced, with their return, for some as communities. thus the island as it is divided has to its political geography many pockets added everywhere, resulting in the obligation of the National Assemblies to provide their service to an electorate that is island-wide.

REJECTED a mish mash of residents and villages is a return to the 1960s didnt work wont work now.

7. settlers who apply for Citizenship, who are accepted, and who will be newly displaced (from the repopulation) shall be provided homes, or at their choosing compensation.

OK after a certain criteria has been applied to allow "settlers" who have lived on the island for over 30 years to remain.

other thoughts...

8. a protocol over the land issue shall be formed so that most disputes are settled by the afffected bodies themselves. the IPC's mandate may be extended to settle the compensation issues of all the displaced, however rulings from the Supreme Court of Cyprus must remain a final court of Judgement for all Property issues.

OK but how will the supreme court be formed?

9. each of the governing bodies will have the right to armed forces toward the enforcement of Law. however only the federal government has a right to an armed force which defends the State. for foreign troops to exist on the island, none are Sovereign in their Bases, recognising the will of the Cypriot People. as such demilitarised, their own armed force could gain great experience in union with willing lease holders toward a common goal which may serve the bigger fight against real enemies (such as disaster, or disease, hunger, or where there are refugees and displaced against their slaughter), or otherwise strictly not allowed.

OK but who will defend state against state conflicts?

...so, three governments (at least); two levels of government: that's Bicommunal.

...so, constituent states made of many components define a National Identity; they serve this majority first, recognising the special needs of others, Nationally an effort toward the State: this is Bizonal.

dear readers, thank-you for your consideration. and to the wordsmiths, please kindly offer your observations point by point to this document's benefits and pitfalls. whether you agree with its proposal as a solution to the Cyprus Problem or not, i'd like to know if at least it is easy to understand.

I have gone over your manifesto but find it very basic, it has to be filled in as to what the checks and balances are, the risks and how they should be addressed.

Do you have any support from your side, can you post a few GC comments because this is very close to the AP and if put to referendum would be rejected by the GCs.
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...for the record: http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus39688-90.html
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:13 am

OK but how will the supreme court be formed?

: vp

...does anyone have any suggestions?
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