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...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:35 pm

Viewpoint wrote:repulse your upper house structure is not only ambiguous but very dangerous, the majority being the Gcs will use their advantage to get their candidates into office for both states therefore taking control of the whole island.



...indeed, dangerous if Turks would sell out Turks, for "Greek" aims; but not at all likely.

...and think, let's say four Parties: that will require 200 Turkish Cypriots to become Candidates, per capita, serious representation when compared to the overwhelming population generally.

does that answer your question, can you see the sense of the Legislature (at the Federal Level)?
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby GreekIslandGirl » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:47 pm

I'm uncomfortable with the fact that your manifesto is weighted too heavily on ethnic considerations instead of the rights of the individual.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby Viewpoint » Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:44 pm

repulsewarrior wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:repulse your upper house structure is not only ambiguous but very dangerous, the majority being the Gcs will use their advantage to get their candidates into office for both states therefore taking control of the whole island.



...indeed, dangerous if Turks would sell out Turks, for "Greek" aims; but not at all likely.

...and think, let's say four Parties: that will require 200 Turkish Cypriots to become Candidates, per capita, serious representation when compared to the overwhelming population generally.

does that answer your question, can you see the sense of the Legislature (at the Federal Level)?


No it doesnt. Play out the scenario 4 parties run for election in the upper house, there are 3 GC parties and 1 TC party 20% of the votes are from the TCs and 80% from the GCs which party do yu think will get elected and can the system be manipulated to the benefit of a certain party. Will the be a pan party of parties form both states, to may questions need to answered.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby yialousa1971 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:57 pm

Get Real! wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:...it's the manifesto thingy, again

For the love of God... someone lock him up or something! :?


Yes lets do, you can be his cell mate. :) :mrgreen:
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:11 pm

yialousa1971 wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:...it's the manifesto thingy, again

For the love of God... someone lock him up or something! :?


Yes lets do, you can be his cell mate. :) :mrgreen:


...and do you think that will shut either of us up, two of us locked up in a jail together with one focus: Cyprus, and the Cypriots.

you should be careful what you wish for...
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby yialousa1971 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:45 pm

repulsewarrior wrote:
yialousa1971 wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:...it's the manifesto thingy, again

For the love of God... someone lock him up or something! :?


Yes lets do, you can be his cell mate. :) :mrgreen:


...and do you think that will shut either of us up, two of us locked up in a jail together with one focus: Cyprus, and the Cypriots.

you should be careful what you wish for...


Once GR has mated with you it will eat you. :twisted: Where do you think Banana (Bananiot) went? :mrgreen:
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:52 pm

Viewpoint wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:repulse your upper house structure is not only ambiguous but very dangerous, the majority being the Gcs will use their advantage to get their candidates into office for both states therefore taking control of the whole island.



...indeed, dangerous if Turks would sell out Turks, for "Greek" aims; but not at all likely.

...and think, let's say four Parties: that will require 200 Turkish Cypriots to become Candidates, per capita, serious representation when compared to the overwhelming population generally.

does that answer your question, can you see the sense of the Legislature (at the Federal Level)?


No it doesnt. Play out the scenario 4 parties run for election in the upper house, there are 3 GC parties and 1 TC party 20% of the votes are from the TCs and 80% from the GCs which party do yu think will get elected and can the system be manipulated to the benefit of a certain party. Will the be a pan party of parties form both states, to may questions need to answered.


no matter what, like the Turkish based Party, the Greek based Party cannot win the Upper House without the support of Citizens Greek and Turkish. more importantly, i think is that extremist elements in Parties must contend with the fact that they may not have a winning hand within their own Party, even in Electoral Ridings where there is a concentration of their potential supporters, nothing stops voters from voting for two seperate parties, from the seperate slates, for their two representatives, one Turkish, one Greek. in effect, a Party may win a voice in the Upper House by being Culturally or Ethnically centric, voters can make that choice, but since every vote counts equally, Parties which have the aim to lead the House cannot; as you say, they are, 'pan parties', or parties formed from a membership which spans the Constituent states.

again, given the numbers by population, Turcophones by their proportion have better representation, the service they get should be that much more satisfactory given that each Turkish Cypriot Representative has an equal voice as there Greek Cypriot counterpart, there are always 50-50 seats between them. irrespective how they are divivded, as Conservatives, Liberal, Socialist, etc., if it should come to Turkishness or Greekness to defend, Parties will take sides, regardless, if not, these Representatives in unanimity can send a strong message to all their electorates by resigning as Party Members, and voting as a Block.

most significantly, it is easy to imagine the Leadership of the 'pan parties', will change fluidly, Greek or Turk will not be the signifacant driving force, but who represents the Principals of the Party best.

...what do you think?
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:13 pm

GreekIslandGirl wrote:I'm uncomfortable with the fact that your manifesto is weighted too heavily on ethnic considerations instead of the rights of the individual.


not so, perhaps in a counter-intuitive sense, the recognition of Persons, and the equality they share as needs is most honourable, each has the opportunity to thrive, as Cypriot Constituencies. as Individuals, having this self-representation, they as Citizens have every opportunity, at which point, to stand united for the betterment of Cyprus, where in the Legislature their ethnicity in effect is of little import.

there are Universal Principals, such as Free Movement, Free Association, and Free Expression, which i believe no one disputes, and so i did not feel the need to stress them. but again, read the Articles carefully, it is this intent which is imbedded, within.

@Pyrpoliser, do you get this, as well?

...and you bill, will you do the ticky ticky thingy that vp was so gracious to do, too?
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby bill cobbett » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:22 pm

repulsewarrior wrote:
GreekIslandGirl wrote:I'm uncomfortable with the fact that your manifesto is weighted too heavily on ethnic considerations instead of the rights of the individual.


not so, perhaps in a counter-intuitive sense, the recognition of Persons, and the equality they share as needs is most honourable, each has the opportunity to thrive, as Cypriot Constituencies. as Individuals, having this self-representation, they as Citizens have every opportunity, at which point, to stand united for the betterment of Cyprus, where in the Legislature their ethnicity in effect is of little import.

there are Universal Principals, such as Free Movement, Free Association, and Free Expression, which i believe no one disputes, and so i did not feel the need to stress them. but again, read the Articles carefully, it is this intent which is imbedded, within.

@Pyrpoliser, do you get this, as well?

...and you bill, will you do the ticky ticky thingy that vp was so gracious to do, too?


Yes of course RW... :(

...but you re-write the Manifesto as as no more than 20 bullet-points, each of no more than 20 words each first ... Pleeeeese...!!! ...
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:34 pm

repulsewarrior wrote:
Quote:
That federation would comprise a federal government with a single international personality, along with a Turkish Cypriot constituent state and a Greek Cypriot constituent state, which would be of equal status.



...i guess i'm too lazy to find the definitive source of where this Statement comes from, but this is the link to this quotation's source:

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=35098&Cr=&Cr1=


please note:

-a federal government must exist.
-a Turkish Cypriot constituent state must exist.
-a Greek Cypriot constituent state must exist.

thus the only conclusion i can make is that there is a need for Greeks to constitute a form of representation that completes this Agreement's very basis; a Greek Cypriot constituent state.

here are the rainbow lines i draw:

1. the federal government defines its Citizens as Individuals; by their residence.

2. the voting is democratic, all voters voting in the same way, all votes are given the same weight.

3. the legislature for the federal government is Bicameral, it is the Upper House that provides leadership, having seats equally divided among Turkish and Greek representatives where a majority of seats must be won by a leader who becomes President. and a Lower House which is elected by Population, as Independants representing sober second thinking, voting by consensus through a Speaker, they would also sit in Government Committees. (slight shades of the Annan plan)

4. as such, a voter will vote thricely (voting once), from three seperate slates, so that the best representatives are elected by and for the voter's riding, they will vote for their Turkish Cypriot Representative and their Greek Cypriot Representative, as well as their Independant. Representative. (shades of the guy or was it the guy before that)

...do the math (for the Upper and Lower House), then assume larger populations and a different demographic, do the math again...

...then consider how over time a representative's experience and expertise can grow, and consider how this changing population is open to a representation in the future which will sustain Turkish and Greek identities by civic leaders of neither ethnicity.

5. the Turkish constituent state, and the Greek constituent state shall be equal, in that they each represent themselves as Persons in a National Assembly where their electorate is identified by their residence, and in that they obtian their Charter meeting the same criteria determined by the federal government which retains its Sovereignty while assigning territorial Jurisdiction.

6. Bizonal shall define a geographic representation of our commitment to redressing the suffering of all displaced, with their return, for some as communities. thus the island as it is divided has to its political geography many pockets added everywhere, resulting in the obligation of the National Assemblies to provide their service to an electorate that is island-wide.

7. settlers who apply for Citizenship, who are accepted, and who will be newly displaced (from the repopulation) shall be provided homes, or at their choosing compensation.

other thoughts...

8. a protocol over the land issue shall be formed so that most disputes are settled by the afffected bodies themselves. the IPC's mandate may be extended to settle the compensation issues of all the displaced, however rulings from the Supreme Court of Cyprus must remain a final court of Judgement for all Property issues.

9. each of the governing bodies will have the right to armed forces toward the enforcement of Law. however only the federal government has a right to an armed force which defends the State. for foreign troops to exist on the island, none are Sovereign in their Bases, recognising the will of the Cypriot People. as such demilitarised, their own armed force could gain great experience in union with willing lease holders toward a common goal which may serve the bigger fight against real enemies (such as disaster, or disease, hunger, or where there are refugees and displaced against their slaughter), or otherwise strictly not allowed.

...so, three governments (at least); two levels of government: that's Bicommunal.

...so, constituent states made of many components define a National Identity; they serve this majority first, recognising the special needs of others, Nationally an effort toward the State: this is Bizonal.

dear readers, thank-you for your consideration. and to the wordsmiths, please kindly offer your observations point by point to this document's benefits and pitfalls. whether you agree with its proposal as a solution to the Cyprus Problem or not, i'd like to know if at least it is easy to understand.
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Cyprus: three governments; one Capital and Free.


...c'mon mate, it's a quick beer before breakfast.
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