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...it's the manifesto thingy, again

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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby bill cobbett » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:40 pm

repulsewarrior wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:
Quote:
That federation would comprise a federal government with a single international personality, along with a Turkish Cypriot constituent state and a Greek Cypriot constituent state, which would be of equal status.



...i guess i'm too lazy to find the definitive source of where this Statement comes from, but this is the link to this quotation's source:

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=35098&Cr=&Cr1=


please note:

-a federal government must exist.
-a Turkish Cypriot constituent state must exist.
-a Greek Cypriot constituent state must exist.

thus the only conclusion i can make is that there is a need for Greeks to constitute a form of representation that completes this Agreement's very basis; a Greek Cypriot constituent state.

here are the rainbow lines i draw:

1. the federal government defines its Citizens as Individuals; by their residence.

2. the voting is democratic, all voters voting in the same way, all votes are given the same weight.

3. the legislature for the federal government is Bicameral, it is the Upper House that provides leadership, having seats equally divided among Turkish and Greek representatives where a majority of seats must be won by a leader who becomes President. and a Lower House which is elected by Population, as Independants representing sober second thinking, voting by consensus through a Speaker, they would also sit in Government Committees. (slight shades of the Annan plan)

4. as such, a voter will vote thricely (voting once), from three seperate slates, so that the best representatives are elected by and for the voter's riding, they will vote for their Turkish Cypriot Representative and their Greek Cypriot Representative, as well as their Independant. Representative. (shades of the guy or was it the guy before that)

...do the math (for the Upper and Lower House), then assume larger populations and a different demographic, do the math again...

...then consider how over time a representative's experience and expertise can grow, and consider how this changing population is open to a representation in the future which will sustain Turkish and Greek identities by civic leaders of neither ethnicity.

5. the Turkish constituent state, and the Greek constituent state shall be equal, in that they each represent themselves as Persons in a National Assembly where their electorate is identified by their residence, and in that they obtian their Charter meeting the same criteria determined by the federal government which retains its Sovereignty while assigning territorial Jurisdiction.

6. Bizonal shall define a geographic representation of our commitment to redressing the suffering of all displaced, with their return, for some as communities. thus the island as it is divided has to its political geography many pockets added everywhere, resulting in the obligation of the National Assemblies to provide their service to an electorate that is island-wide.

7. settlers who apply for Citizenship, who are accepted, and who will be newly displaced (from the repopulation) shall be provided homes, or at their choosing compensation.

other thoughts...

8. a protocol over the land issue shall be formed so that most disputes are settled by the afffected bodies themselves. the IPC's mandate may be extended to settle the compensation issues of all the displaced, however rulings from the Supreme Court of Cyprus must remain a final court of Judgement for all Property issues.

9. each of the governing bodies will have the right to armed forces toward the enforcement of Law. however only the federal government has a right to an armed force which defends the State. for foreign troops to exist on the island, none are Sovereign in their Bases, recognising the will of the Cypriot People. as such demilitarised, their own armed force could gain great experience in union with willing lease holders toward a common goal which may serve the bigger fight against real enemies (such as disaster, or disease, hunger, or where there are refugees and displaced against their slaughter), or otherwise strictly not allowed.

...so, three governments (at least); two levels of government: that's Bicommunal.

...so, constituent states made of many components define a National Identity; they serve this majority first, recognising the special needs of others, Nationally an effort toward the State: this is Bizonal.

dear readers, thank-you for your consideration. and to the wordsmiths, please kindly offer your observations point by point to this document's benefits and pitfalls. whether you agree with its proposal as a solution to the Cyprus Problem or not, i'd like to know if at least it is easy to understand.
_________________


Cyprus: three governments; one Capital and Free.


...c'mon mate, it's a quick beer before breakfast.


... well, just had a few whiskies with flipping dinner...!!!

Get "g"IG to do it... she's good with words.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby Viewpoint » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:40 am

repulsewarrior wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:repulse your upper house structure is not only ambiguous but very dangerous, the majority being the Gcs will use their advantage to get their candidates into office for both states therefore taking control of the whole island.



...indeed, dangerous if Turks would sell out Turks, for "Greek" aims; but not at all likely.

...and think, let's say four Parties: that will require 200 Turkish Cypriots to become Candidates, per capita, serious representation when compared to the overwhelming population generally.

does that answer your question, can you see the sense of the Legislature (at the Federal Level)?


No it doesnt. Play out the scenario 4 parties run for election in the upper house, there are 3 GC parties and 1 TC party 20% of the votes are from the TCs and 80% from the GCs which party do yu think will get elected and can the system be manipulated to the benefit of a certain party. Will the be a pan party of parties form both states, to may questions need to answered.


no matter what, like the Turkish based Party, the Greek based Party cannot win the Upper House without the support of Citizens Greek and Turkish. more importantly, i think is that extremist elements in Parties must contend with the fact that they may not have a winning hand within their own Party, even in Electoral Ridings where there is a concentration of their potential supporters, nothing stops voters from voting for two seperate parties, from the seperate slates, for their two representatives, one Turkish, one Greek. in effect, a Party may win a voice in the Upper House by being Culturally or Ethnically centric, voters can make that choice, but since every vote counts equally, Parties which have the aim to lead the House cannot; as you say, they are, 'pan parties', or parties formed from a membership which spans the Constituent states.

again, given the numbers by population, Turcophones by their proportion have better representation, the service they get should be that much more satisfactory given that each Turkish Cypriot Representative has an equal voice as there Greek Cypriot counterpart, there are always 50-50 seats between them. irrespective how they are divivded, as Conservatives, Liberal, Socialist, etc., if it should come to Turkishness or Greekness to defend, Parties will take sides, regardless, if not, these Representatives in unanimity can send a strong message to all their electorates by resigning as Party Members, and voting as a Block.

most significantly, it is easy to imagine the Leadership of the 'pan parties', will change fluidly, Greek or Turk will not be the signifacant driving force, but who represents the Principals of the Party best.

...what do you think?


Difficult to think anything because there is no clarity in your proposals, lets play out a scenario.

Upper House is comprised of 50 GC MPS from the south state and 50 TC MPS from the north state, they are all elected by from votes from all over the island, am I right so far? What happens if a GC MP is elected residing in the north state from votes totally from the south state, which state will he represent?

To pass law will the upper house need 51 MP votes regardless of which state they come from?

Please reply clearly and precisely, so that we can move forward.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:26 am

Viewpoint wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:repulse your upper house structure is not only ambiguous but very dangerous, the majority being the Gcs will use their advantage to get their candidates into office for both states therefore taking control of the whole island.



...indeed, dangerous if Turks would sell out Turks, for "Greek" aims; but not at all likely.

...and think, let's say four Parties: that will require 200 Turkish Cypriots to become Candidates, per capita, serious representation when compared to the overwhelming population generally.

does that answer your question, can you see the sense of the Legislature (at the Federal Level)?


No it doesnt. Play out the scenario 4 parties run for election in the upper house, there are 3 GC parties and 1 TC party 20% of the votes are from the TCs and 80% from the GCs which party do yu think will get elected and can the system be manipulated to the benefit of a certain party. Will the be a pan party of parties form both states, to may questions need to answered.


no matter what, like the Turkish based Party, the Greek based Party cannot win the Upper House without the support of Citizens Greek and Turkish. more importantly, i think is that extremist elements in Parties must contend with the fact that they may not have a winning hand within their own Party, even in Electoral Ridings where there is a concentration of their potential supporters, nothing stops voters from voting for two seperate parties, from the seperate slates, for their two representatives, one Turkish, one Greek. in effect, a Party may win a voice in the Upper House by being Culturally or Ethnically centric, voters can make that choice, but since every vote counts equally, Parties which have the aim to lead the House cannot; as you say, they are, 'pan parties', or parties formed from a membership which spans the Constituent states.

again, given the numbers by population, Turcophones by their proportion have better representation, the service they get should be that much more satisfactory given that each Turkish Cypriot Representative has an equal voice as there Greek Cypriot counterpart, there are always 50-50 seats between them. irrespective how they are divivded, as Conservatives, Liberal, Socialist, etc., if it should come to Turkishness or Greekness to defend, Parties will take sides, regardless, if not, these Representatives in unanimity can send a strong message to all their electorates by resigning as Party Members, and voting as a Block.

most significantly, it is easy to imagine the Leadership of the 'pan parties', will change fluidly, Greek or Turk will not be the signifacant driving force, but who represents the Principals of the Party best.

...what do you think?


Difficult to think anything because there is no clarity in your proposals, lets play out a scenario.

Upper House is comprised of 50 GC MPS from the south state and 50 TC MPS from the north state, they are all elected by from votes from all over the island, am I right so far? What happens if a GC MP is elected residing in the north state from votes totally from the south state, which state will he represent?

To pass law will the upper house need 51 MP votes regardless of which state they come from?

Please reply clearly and precisely, so that we can move forward.


...again, at the Federal Level, people do not vote as northerners or southerners, they vote strictly as Individuals. there are a total of 50 seats over the whole island which are for Representatives voted as Turkish, the same for Greeks. whether a party wins holding a majority of Greek seats or Turkish seats in effect is irrelevant, they must win the majority in the Upper House. as i've said, in this system it is virtually impossible for Greeks, or Turks to win, as one Party, all the seats assigned by ethnicity, therefore it is only likely that such Parties will gain some seats, at best; party coalitions in the same respect at best can only compete for attention, given that Pan-Cypriot Parties are more than likely to be the norm.

...so to look at it another way, the Turkish Constituency has 25 Greek Cypriot Representatives, the Greek Constituency would have 25 Turkish Cypriot Representatives, as all voters vote in exactly the same way, regardless, for the Upper House, each voter elects one Representative of each.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby Viewpoint » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:41 am

So in effect its first past the post the TC and GC MP Candidates with most votes from around the island take their place in the upper house, wasnt this my idea?

So a GC candidate who gets more votes than TC candidate can be left out because he came 51st in the line up whereas the TCs came 20th with less votes.

You did not answer the question about voting in the upper house how many votes form each state will be necessary to pass a bill?
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:05 am

So in effect its first past the post the TC and GC MP Candidates with most votes from around the island take their place in the upper house, wasnt this my idea?


yes, if i understand what you said correctly, two slates on which Parties place Candidates, in each electoral riding, winning the most votes on a slate, wins the slate, two Representatives are voted for by each voter (one from each slate), whether the voter is Turkish or Greek.

So a GC candidate who gets more votes than TC candidate can be left out because he came 51st in the line up whereas the TCs came 20th with less votes.


yes, again if i understand you correctly, the GC is running as a Candidate for a Party on a slate with the other Greek Candidates from other Parties, the same can be said for the slate of Turkish Cypriot Candidates. if a Party wants to win both seats in each electoral riding wherever it is on the island, it must demonstrate Principals that voters identify which are Universal, whether the Party, as you say was first founded by Greeks and'or Turks.

You did not answer the question about voting in the upper house how many votes form each state will be necessary to pass a bill?


no votes, as such, are required from each Constituent state, what is Greek, and what is Turkish, if you will, will be debated within their own National Assembly, with its own set of Representatives, and an Agenda which is focused on their own needs, first. all Cypriots have the choice, by where they reside, to be a minority or a majority within a Cypriot Constituency, but unless they are not Turkish, or not Greek, (i.e Russian, etc. have no seats) they are minorities, at the Federal Level Greeks and Turks enjoy equality (and in effect a superiority to them); on another note, it is likely that all Representatives will speak English, as well as other languages.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby Viewpoint » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:41 am

So basically its first past the post on both state slates and a certain number of predetermined votes from each state to pass a law, this is something I proposed some time ago so I would support such a system.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:54 pm

Viewpoint wrote:So basically its first past the post on both state slates and a certain number of predetermined votes from each state to pass a law, this is something I proposed some time ago so I would support such a system.


again, i will try again...

...vp, there is no "state slate". at the Federal Level, you are neither identified as a Constituent State, or as Turcophone, you are no different to anyone else as a voter, your vote is exactly the same as any other voter, you are an Individual, and as a Person you decide what to do with your tax dollars in a National Assembly, as a Turkish Cypriot, for your schools, your hospitals, municipalities, etc., it will be exactly the same for Greeks in their National Assembly, but to determine the criteria that Cypriots follow whether Greek, Turk, or any other ethnicity, you vote as a Cypriot, without these distinctions' bias, you vote with the betterment of Cyprus in mind, not your particular Constituency.

the slates you vote from will include the Candidates in your Electoral Riding representing their Party's Platform (people living in the riding who are left, right, center, other, etc.). Pan-Cypriot Parties will have Candidates on every slate, for every seat, island-wide. you as a voter can split your vote, or choose to vote on both slates, for the same Party. you will be choosing the best Candidates to represent you, you as a member of an Electoral Riding in Cyprus, whether you are living in one Constituency or another.

...is this clear?
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby Viewpoint » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:53 pm

repulsewarrior wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:So basically its first past the post on both state slates and a certain number of predetermined votes from each state to pass a law, this is something I proposed some time ago so I would support such a system.


again, i will try again...

...vp, there is no "state slate". at the Federal Level, you are neither identified as a Constituent State, or as Turcophone, you are no different to anyone else as a voter, your vote is exactly the same as any other voter, you are an Individual, and as a Person you decide what to do with your tax dollars in a National Assembly, as a Turkish Cypriot, for your schools, your hospitals, municipalities, etc., it will be exactly the same for Greeks in their National Assembly, but to determine the criteria that Cypriots follow whether Greek, Turk, or any other ethnicity, you vote as a Cypriot, without these distinctions' bias, you vote with the betterment of Cyprus in mind, not your particular Constituency.

the slates you vote from will include the Candidates in your Electoral Riding representing their Party's Platform (people living in the riding who are left, right, center, other, etc.). Pan-Cypriot Parties will have Candidates on every slate, for every seat, island-wide. you as a voter can split your vote, or choose to vote on both slates, for the same Party. you will be choosing the best Candidates to represent you, you as a member of an Electoral Riding in Cyprus, whether you are living in one Constituency or another.

...is this clear?


Definitely not clear, you are now back tracking and clouding the real issue so unclear propositions make everyone nervous, you need to provide examples and clarification.

Let me ask again will the Upper Federal Level have 50TC MPs and 50GC MPs originating from votes cast island wise? In that case all 100 MPs can originate from the south state? How will the necessary minimum votes be achieved from each state to pass a law?
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby Lordo » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:26 pm

rw that looks a good plan accept troops. we can have armed police units on both zones in equal number but no need for any troops. they are pointless and waste of money. they certainly cannot defend cyprus against outsiders and are definate threat to insiders, so no no for troops. the land must be armyless.

but there has to be a provision to test the cypriotness of all the charluis.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:37 pm

Viewpoint wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:So basically its first past the post on both state slates and a certain number of predetermined votes from each state to pass a law, this is something I proposed some time ago so I would support such a system.


again, i will try again...

...vp, there is no "state slate". at the Federal Level, you are neither identified as a Constituent State, or as Turcophone, you are no different to anyone else as a voter, your vote is exactly the same as any other voter, you are an Individual, and as a Person you decide what to do with your tax dollars in a National Assembly, as a Turkish Cypriot, for your schools, your hospitals, municipalities, etc., it will be exactly the same for Greeks in their National Assembly, but to determine the criteria that Cypriots follow whether Greek, Turk, or any other ethnicity, you vote as a Cypriot, without these distinctions' bias, you vote with the betterment of Cyprus in mind, not your particular Constituency.

the slates you vote from will include the Candidates in your Electoral Riding representing their Party's Platform (people living in the riding who are left, right, center, other, etc.). Pan-Cypriot Parties will have Candidates on every slate, for every seat, island-wide. you as a voter can split your vote, or choose to vote on both slates, for the same Party. you will be choosing the best Candidates to represent you, you as a member of an Electoral Riding in Cyprus, whether you are living in one Constituency or another.

...is this clear?


Definitely not clear, you are now back tracking and clouding the real issue so unclear propositions make everyone nervous, you need to provide examples and clarification.

Let me ask again will the Upper Federal Level have 50TC MPs and 50GC MPs originating from votes cast island wise? In that case all 100 MPs can originate from the south state? How will the necessary minimum votes be achieved from each state to pass a law?


Lordo, will you take the time to exolain to vp what i seem to be having trouble with. before it is rejected by him (or not), at least if i was sure he understands its Principal. check out Art. 3 -4, they are the crux of this issue.
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