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...it's the manifesto thingy, again

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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:45 pm

Let me ask again will the Upper Federal Level have 50TC MPs and 50GC MPs originating from votes cast island wise? In that case all 100 MPs can originate from the south state? How will the necessary minimum votes be achieved from each state to pass a law?


ok vp, please be patient, i will explain again, it is really quite simple but you must put your pre-assumptions aside:

1. all Electoral Ridings have approx. the same number of voters.
2. the island is divided into (50) Electoral Ridings.
3. each voter chooses one Representative from two slates, to elect a Turkish Cypriot Representative and a Greek Cypriot Representative, for the Upper House.

...thus, all Cypriots have representation, as Cypriots, without discrimination or distinction.

the Cypriot Constituencies represent themselves (and collect taxes) within their Territorial Jurisdictions, on matters which effect their daily lives, education, health, social services and Civil Courts; they are a second level of Government. they represent (and act for) their electors as Persons (as Greeks/Turks) within the criteria that the Federal Legislature sets for all its Citizens as Individuals (as Human Beings). there is a separation of power, Constituencies do not have a direct vote at the Federal Level, and the Federal Government cannot interfere with the way Constituent states apply themselves toward these aims.

3. the legislature for the federal government is Bicameral, it is the Upper House that provides leadership, having seats equally divided among Turkish and Greek representatives where a majority of seats must be won by a leader who becomes President. and a Lower House which is elected by Population, as Independants representing sober second thinking, voting by consensus through a Speaker, they would also sit in Government Committees. (slight shades of the Annan plan)

4. as such, a voter will vote thricely (voting once), from three seperate slates, so that the best representatives are elected by and for the voter's riding, they will vote for their Turkish Cypriot Representative and their Greek Cypriot Representative, as well as their Independant. Representative. (shades of the guy or was it the guy before that)

...do the math (for the Upper and Lower House), then assume larger populations and a different demographic, do the math again...

...then consider how over time a representative's experience and expertise can grow, and consider how this changing population is open to a representation in the future which will sustain Turkish and Greek identities by civic leaders of neither ethnicity.

5. the Turkish constituent state, and the Greek constituent state shall be equal, in that they each represent themselves as Persons in a National Assembly where their electorate is identified by their residence, and in that they obtain their Charter meeting the same criteria determined by the federal government which retains its Sovereignty while assigning territorial Jurisdiction.


...try reading these articles again, i hope my explanation makes them clearer for you; do not hesitate to ask more questions, i welcome the discussion.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:49 pm

dp
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby Viewpoint » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:12 am

repulsewarrior wrote:
Let me ask again will the Upper Federal Level have 50TC MPs and 50GC MPs originating from votes cast island wise? In that case all 100 MPs can originate from the south state? How will the necessary minimum votes be achieved from each state to pass a law?


ok vp, please be patient, i will explain again, it is really quite simple but you must put your pre-assumptions aside:

1. all Electoral Ridings have approx. the same number of voters.
2. the island is divided into (50) Electoral Ridings.
3. each voter chooses one Representative from two slates, to elect a Turkish Cypriot Representative and a Greek Cypriot Representative, for the Upper House.

...thus, all Cypriots have representation, as Cypriots, without discrimination or distinction.

the Cypriot Constituencies represent themselves (and collect taxes) within their Territorial Jurisdictions, on matters which effect their daily lives, education, health, social services and Civil Courts; they are a second level of Government. they represent (and act for) their electors as Persons (as Greeks/Turks) within the criteria that the Federal Legislature sets for all its Citizens as Individuals (as Human Beings). there is a separation of power, Constituencies do not have a direct vote at the Federal Level, and the Federal Government cannot interfere with the way Constituent states apply themselves toward these aims.

3. the legislature for the federal government is Bicameral, it is the Upper House that provides leadership, having seats equally divided among Turkish and Greek representatives where a majority of seats must be won by a leader who becomes President. and a Lower House which is elected by Population, as Independants representing sober second thinking, voting by consensus through a Speaker, they would also sit in Government Committees. (slight shades of the Annan plan)

4. as such, a voter will vote thricely (voting once), from three seperate slates, so that the best representatives are elected by and for the voter's riding, they will vote for their Turkish Cypriot Representative and their Greek Cypriot Representative, as well as their Independant. Representative. (shades of the guy or was it the guy before that)

...do the math (for the Upper and Lower House), then assume larger populations and a different demographic, do the math again...

...then consider how over time a representative's experience and expertise can grow, and consider how this changing population is open to a representation in the future which will sustain Turkish and Greek identities by civic leaders of neither ethnicity.

5. the Turkish constituent state, and the Greek constituent state shall be equal, in that they each represent themselves as Persons in a National Assembly where their electorate is identified by their residence, and in that they obtain their Charter meeting the same criteria determined by the federal government which retains its Sovereignty while assigning territorial Jurisdiction.


...try reading these articles again, i hope my explanation makes them clearer for you; do not hesitate to ask more questions, i welcome the discussion.


Firstly what is a riding?

Please provide a scenario eg;

Upper House has 50 seats
Split between 25 south 25 north state
The vote is island wide and each citizens votes for the MP they want to represent them one TC and one GC
The first 25 GC and 25 TC regardless of which state they come from with the most votes get elected. Am I right?

What happens if the majority of MP come form the south state?

Dont use long winded explanations again as I will not respond again, give me real scenarios of how things will work.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:41 am

an Electoral Riding:

let us assume that Cyprus has a population of one million people. given that there are 50 ridings each will represent 20,000 people; you vote for the representatives for your riding. thus, it is really quite simple. in each riding someone wins a slate by gaining (in the riding) the greatest number of votes, to become the riding's representative. a Party wins the leadership of the Upper House by winning the greatest number of seats (two seats for each riding). it may be that a Party wins more Turkish Cypriot Seats or Greek Cypriot seats overall, but to have a majority of seats in the House, it is impossible for a Party to do so by representing one ethnicity only, they must run on Policy, and the Principals they support will be Universal.

each riding is represented by a Turkish Cypriot and a Greek Cypriot who live in the riding. there is no possibility for all the MPs to come from the north or the south. there is no possibility that the election results favour one riding over the other either.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby Viewpoint » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:53 am

Are you in Canada, you cannot even clarify what that a riding is a district how do you expect us to understand what you are saying if you are not able to give clear concise details of what you promote.

So in effect what you are suggesting is that we now split the whole island into 50 districts/counties/constiuents and that every area has 2 candidates from each party one TC and one GC runnning for election on a joint ticket of that "riding" based on political ideology rather than ethnic origins.

So 50 "ridings" X 2 = 100 MPs
Does each "riding" have 1 vote each? seeing there are 2 MPs?
What happens if there is a 25/25 deadlock? or will there be a minimum votes required from each state?
What happens if the 2 MPs from the "riding" cannot agree? wikk they abstain from voting.
This type of system can easily be sabotaged by inter party wrangling to the benefit of one state over the other.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:07 pm

...thank-you vp, yes, if you will, a district. no, each district has two votes, and since you voted from two slates your representatives can come from different Parties. and since the Representatives do not have to agree there are no tricks they can play, however it is likely that the voters in the district will have more information about important issues where acrimony, among Parties may arise. even if there is a 25/25 split in the House, it will not be split between Greeks and Turks, that is near impossible.

...there are of course Constituent States with their Legislatures as well.

on this article, are there more questions?
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby Viewpoint » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:28 pm

So the MPs from the north state can be GCs because there will be certain number who decide to move back who can also vote to pass bills against the TCs living in their ridings, am I correct? How will you stop this from happening?
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby Oceanside50 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:08 pm

A gc cannot try and pass bills against tc...it would be deemed illegal and confrontational..unlike the crap of the Annan plan which gave the tc the right to pass laws against the gc
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:23 pm

Viewpoint wrote:So the MPs from the north state can be GCs because there will be certain number who decide to move back who can also vote to pass bills against the TCs living in their ridings, am I correct? How will you stop this from happening?


i don't get your point. Turkish Cypriots in the north will be voting for their Greek Representatives, just like in the south. whether, Cypriots live north or south, they all vote, within a district/riding, and in exactly the same way. whether the leadership of a Party is a Turcophone or Grecophone is of little importance, the beliefs of the Party must reach out to a majority within each district to win both seats, or a majority of seats in the House overall.

...we are not discussing the Governance of Constituencies, what the majorities and minorities will do in each, within them of course there will be Agendas to sustain an Identity which has distintictive qualities, as Greeks, or Turks, but at the Federal Level, all Cypriots are the same, and what they will debate in effect will concern all Cypriots equally.

...thanks vp, is there anything else that i can clarify?
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby Viewpoint » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:00 am

Oceanside50 wrote:A gc cannot try and pass bills against tc...it would be deemed illegal and confrontational..unlike the crap of the Annan plan which gave the tc the right to pass laws against the gc


Link? where did it say that please provide link otherwise your claim is rubbish.
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