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...it's the manifesto thingy, again

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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby Viewpoint » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:09 am

repulsewarrior wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:So the MPs from the north state can be GCs because there will be certain number who decide to move back who can also vote to pass bills against the TCs living in their ridings, am I correct? How will you stop this from happening?


i don't get your point. Turkish Cypriots in the north will be voting for their Greek Representatives, just like in the south. whether, Cypriots live north or south, they all vote, within a district/riding, and in exactly the same way. whether the leadership of a Party is a Turcophone or Grecophone is of little importance, the beliefs of the Party must reach out to a majority within each district to win both seats, or a majority of seats in the House overall.

...we are not discussing the Governance of Constituencies, what the majorities and minorities will do in each, within them of course there will be Agendas to sustain an Identity which has distintictive qualities, as Greeks, or Turks, but at the Federal Level, all Cypriots are the same, and what they will debate in effect will concern all Cypriots equally.

...thanks vp, is there anything else that i can clarify?


Me and the majority of TCs would reject such a voting system because it is open to manipulation and corruption. if for example 1 riding from the north state was to elect a GC this would mean 26 of the total 50 ridings are represented by only GCs then they have the upper hand and can pass any laws they wish to the detriment of the TCs, this is totally unacceptable and would place us in great danger. There has to be a counter balance so that there has to be a minimum of votes required from both states to pass any laws especially if primary laws or laws which will effect one side more negatively than the other.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby kurupetos » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:53 am

Viewpoint wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:So the MPs from the north state can be GCs because there will be certain number who decide to move back who can also vote to pass bills against the TCs living in their ridings, am I correct? How will you stop this from happening?


i don't get your point. Turkish Cypriots in the north will be voting for their Greek Representatives, just like in the south. whether, Cypriots live north or south, they all vote, within a district/riding, and in exactly the same way. whether the leadership of a Party is a Turcophone or Grecophone is of little importance, the beliefs of the Party must reach out to a majority within each district to win both seats, or a majority of seats in the House overall.

...we are not discussing the Governance of Constituencies, what the majorities and minorities will do in each, within them of course there will be Agendas to sustain an Identity which has distintictive qualities, as Greeks, or Turks, but at the Federal Level, all Cypriots are the same, and what they will debate in effect will concern all Cypriots equally.

...thanks vp, is there anything else that i can clarify?


Me and the majority of TCs would reject such a voting system because it is open to manipulation and corruption. if for example 1 riding from the north state was to elect a GC this would mean 26 of the total 50 ridings are represented by only GCs then they have the upper hand and can pass any laws they wish to the detriment of the TCs, this is totally unacceptable and would place us in great danger. There has to be a counter balance so that there has to be a minimum of votes required from both states to pass any laws especially if primary laws or laws which will effect one side more negatively than the other.

All Cypriots, GCs and TCs, should reject such a plan, because obviously it promotes partition and discrimination.

It's funny people like RW support the so called 'reunification', by promoting partitionist solution plans. :roll:
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:59 pm

vp, you still don't get it, do you.

there can be no more or no less, 50 Turkish Cypriots, 50 Greek Cypriots as Representatives in the Upper House. each Turkish Cypriot will vote for their Greek Cypriot Representative, and they will vote for their Turkish Cypriot Representative. Every Cypriot, Greek or Turk will do exactly the same. therefore, if there are 25 districts in the north, there are 25 Greek Cypriot Representatives, and 25 Turkish Cypriot Representatives, there cannot be anymore or any less; your assumptions continue to figure differently, and are flawed.

...i realise you are tiring, but if you are patient, at least before rejecting my proposal, i hope you will undertand it, try again, ...please reconsider.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:02 pm

"All Cypriots, GCs and TCs, should reject such a plan, because obviously it promotes partition and discrimination.

It's funny people like RW support the so called 'reunification', by promoting partitionist solution plans"

kurupetos, easy to say, now prove it.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby kurupetos » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:45 pm

repulsewarrior wrote:"All Cypriots, GCs and TCs, should reject such a plan, because obviously it promotes partition and discrimination.

It's funny people like RW support the so called 'reunification', by promoting partitionist solution plans"

kurupetos, easy to say, now prove it.

Even GR! can prove it. Why bother? :lol:
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:08 pm

kurupetos wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:"All Cypriots, GCs and TCs, should reject such a plan, because obviously it promotes partition and discrimination.

It's funny people like RW support the so called 'reunification', by promoting partitionist solution plans"

kurupetos, easy to say, now prove it.

Even GR! can prove it. Why bother? :lol:


...too easy for you? please enlighten me, after all, if i am a racist, i need help.

...why not give your comments to each article, your OK if you will, just like vp did, why not be helpful?
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:12 pm

repulsewarrior wrote:
a federal government must exist. OK
-a Turkish Cypriot constituent state must exist. OK
-a Greek Cypriot constituent state must exist. OK

thus the only conclusion i can make is that there is a need for Greeks to constitute a form of representation that completes this Agreement's very basis; a Greek Cypriot constituent state.

here are the rainbow lines i draw:

1. the federal government defines its Citizens as Individuals; by their residence. OK

2. the voting is democratic, all voters voting in the same way, all votes are given the same weight. OK

3. the legislature for the federal government is Bicameral, it is the Upper House that provides leadership, having seats equally divided among Turkish and Greek representatives where a majority of seats must be won by a leader who becomes President. and a Lower House which is elected by Population, as Independants representing sober second thinking, voting by consensus through a Speaker, they would also sit in Government Committees. (slight shades of the Annan plan)

What would happen in situaitons of deadlock eg 50 vs 50? or 1 GC voter was not available, ı think we need minimums from each state

4. as such, a voter will vote thricely (voting once), from three seperate slates, so that the best representatives are elected by and for the voter's riding, they will vote for their Turkish Cypriot Representative and their Greek Cypriot Representative, as well as their Independant. Representative. (shades of the guy or was it the guy before that)

Risk bells sound here, cross voting for a rep from the the other state could result in unwanted candidates being elected.

...do the math (for the Upper and Lower House), then assume larger populations and a different demographic, do the math again...

...then consider how over time a representative's experience and expertise can grow, and consider how this changing population is open to a representation in the future which will sustain Turkish and Greek identities by civic leaders of neither ethnicity.

5. the Turkish constituent state, and the Greek constituent state shall be equal, in that they each represent themselves as Persons in a National Assembly where their electorate is identified by their residence, and in that they obtian their Charter meeting the same criteria determined by the federal government which retains its Sovereignty while assigning territorial Jurisdiction.

Clarification necessary.

6. Bizonal shall define a geographic representation of our commitment to redressing the suffering of all displaced, with their return, for some as communities. thus the island as it is divided has to its political geography many pockets added everywhere, resulting in the obligation of the National Assemblies to provide their service to an electorate that is island-wide.

REJECTED a mish mash of residents and villages is a return to the 1960s didnt work wont work now.

7. settlers who apply for Citizenship, who are accepted, and who will be newly displaced (from the repopulation) shall be provided homes, or at their choosing compensation.

OK after a certain criteria has been applied to allow "settlers" who have lived on the island for over 30 years to remain.

other thoughts...

8. a protocol over the land issue shall be formed so that most disputes are settled by the afffected bodies themselves. the IPC's mandate may be extended to settle the compensation issues of all the displaced, however rulings from the Supreme Court of Cyprus must remain a final court of Judgement for all Property issues.

OK but how will the supreme court be formed?

9. each of the governing bodies will have the right to armed forces toward the enforcement of Law. however only the federal government has a right to an armed force which defends the State. for foreign troops to exist on the island, none are Sovereign in their Bases, recognising the will of the Cypriot People. as such demilitarised, their own armed force could gain great experience in union with willing lease holders toward a common goal which may serve the bigger fight against real enemies (such as disaster, or disease, hunger, or where there are refugees and displaced against their slaughter), or otherwise strictly not allowed.

OK but who will defend state against state conflicts?

...so, three governments (at least); two levels of government: that's Bicommunal.

...so, constituent states made of many components define a National Identity; they serve this majority first, recognising the special needs of others, Nationally an effort toward the State: this is Bizonal.

dear readers, thank-you for your consideration. and to the wordsmiths, please kindly offer your observations point by point to this document's benefits and pitfalls. whether you agree with its proposal as a solution to the Cyprus Problem or not, i'd like to know if at least it is easy to understand.

I have gone over your manifesto but find it very basic, it has to be filled in as to what the checks and balances are, the risks and how they should be addressed.

Do you have any support from your side, can you post a few GC comments because this is very close to the AP and if put to referendum would be rejected by the GCs.
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...for the record: http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus39688-90.html


...from page two of this topic.
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby Viewpoint » Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:18 am

repulsewarrior wrote:vp, you still don't get it, do you.

there can be no more or no less, 50 Turkish Cypriots, 50 Greek Cypriots as Representatives in the Upper House. each Turkish Cypriot will vote for their Greek Cypriot Representative, and they will vote for their Turkish Cypriot Representative. Every Cypriot, Greek or Turk will do exactly the same. therefore, if there are 25 districts in the north, there are 25 Greek Cypriot Representatives, and 25 Turkish Cypriot Representatives, there cannot be anymore or any less; your assumptions continue to figure differently, and are flawed.

...i realise you are tiring, but if you are patient, at least before rejecting my proposal, i hope you will undertand it, try again, ...please reconsider.


repulse no disrespect but the confusion stems from your bad English and unclear explanations as how the system will work, you give no examples just a lot of open ended unnecessary elongated answers.

So now we have the whole island voting for MPs in both the north state and south state, no restrictions, so I am a candidate from Lefkoşa, a GC voter from Larnaka can vote for me, he doesnt have to vote for a local candidate one that he knows and trusts will represent him in the upper house.

So I get an island wide vote of 20.000 that ranks me 20th among the island wide candidates of TC origin, yet a GC gets 100.000 votes yet ranks 28th among the GC candidates he will not get elected, am I right?

What if the majority of total MPs elected come from the south state?

Would it not be more workable if the candidate MP and voters all come from the same riding/district?

With MPs being eliminated if they exceed the 25/25 quotas? how will the system deal with a GC MP from the north state which could tip the balance 24/26 in favor of the GCs?
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby repulsewarrior » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:31 pm

...vp, you are making things complicated and yet it is very simple. as for your post above, i don't really understand what you are saying.

you live in a district/electoral riding. Parties seek out Candidates from the riding, they are entered on two seperate slates, one for the election of a Turkish Cypriot, one for the election of a Greek Cypriot. you, the voter choose one from each slate. the Candidate on each slate which wins a majority is elected as your Representatives in the Upper House. this is the same in every riding/district.

...so far do you understand?
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Re: ...it's the manifesto thingy, again

Postby Viewpoint » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:20 pm

repulsewarrior wrote:...vp, you are making things complicated and yet it is very simple. as for your post above, i don't really understand what you are saying.

you live in a district/electoral riding. Parties seek out Candidates from the riding, they are entered on two seperate slates, one for the election of a Turkish Cypriot, one for the election of a Greek Cypriot. you, the voter choose one from each slate. the Candidate on each slate which wins a majority is elected as your Representatives in the Upper House. this is the same in every riding/district.

...so far do you understand?


Finally we are getting some where so in my riding in the north state there are 2 slates one for TCs and one for GCs, we have 25 slates/seats in the upper house. in the north state the GCs are concentrated in 2 certain ridings and get their rep elected, we have a result of 23 TCs and 2 GCs r MPs from the north state, the south has a clean sweep of 25 GC MPs. Now in the upper house we have 23 TC and 27 GC MPs. How will the voting take place in the upper house can the 27 GC votes crush the 23 TC votes? leaving us powerless and in danger.
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