Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Well you could argue that you were not trying to silence bg_ but when coupled with what Source was saying and still is saying it does look awfully like a sly way of belittling his views. Provide the proof is what you said without providing it yourself. As for changing minds, I am not here to change anyone’s mind, just to put them straight when they are saying things without substance.

I think they do have abusive tendenices sometimes. I have witnessed so many times when they were trying to corner Viewpoint with extremely abusive language.
But I respect Piratis, because he doesn't usually go further then calling me racist, in sharp contrast to other entities in this forum.

Your right of course about Piratis, it just gets up my nose when they both attack you instead of your views. So you have an arsenal of information? Since when was it a crime to come into a discussion fully prepared.

lol Zan...and you accuse ME of not knowing whats going on in cyprus.

Firstly, no it wasnt a service provider trick. It was TC's genuinely wanting a united Cyprus with RoC logo's on their phones. This was in 2003, before the details of the Annan plan were known. Infact, I was in Nicosia when the greenline opened and it was an unexpected shock...suddenly seeing TC walk around Ledra Street. almost the first TC I met there was some guy asking if anyone lived in Wood Green lol I started laughing but my uncle didnt know what I was talking about.

I did say i wasn't sure. Your so eager to jump down my throat you don't stop to understand whats going on.

end of the day Zan, you know very well that if this continuing occupation goes on...the numbers of TC will diminish. what you accuse GC of doing is exactly what Turkey is doing right now. How proud are YOU of being Turkish Cypriot??

Give me some figures Source not hearsay, my mum does fortune telling with Turkish coffee for a party trick.

HAHAHAHA...Oh my God....you are truely an ignorant arse lol. 'I think they do have abusive tendencies sometimes' lol. OK, that perfectly entitles me to say all Turks are disgusting football hooligans who kill at any moment. Infact, you ALL have BO problems and all have square heads. BG, you are SO desparate to make Greeks look bad that you say silly things in the process. I'd be surprised if you actually KNOW any GC.

I think hes going to blow a fuse.HAHAHAHAHA

[Main_Source]

Give me some figures Source not hearsay, my mum does fortune telling with Turkish coffee for a party trick.

There will never be truthful or official figures of Turkish settlers and you know that....but its not only the RoC government that says the numbers of settlers is around 40%. A lot of TC friends I know tell me the same thing...that in places there are more settlers than TC. If you want to close your eyes to it then cool...but its people like you who are letting the eventual abolition of Turkish Cypriot culture go through...not Greek Cypriots.

[Piratis]

he doesn't usually go further then calling me racist

What I say is that those that support partition and separation of Cypriots are racists. Do you disagree?
How else, except from racism, can you explain the demand the person X that his ancestors have been living in area for centuries can continue to live in that area, while person Y that his ancestries have been living in that area for millenia is not allowed to live in that area anymore simply because he belongs to a different race?

All the arguments that you give for partition are arguments of the type: "Why TCs can be excused to be racists" (the ones that are). Can somebody be excused for being racists? Can you deny the human rights of a whole race because of what a small minority from that race did to you in the past?

Even if we take the most extreme situation: Germans and Jews. As you said the Holocaust was the worst example of racism in history. Does this mean that a jew is excused today to be racist against germans and violate their human rights? Not even in that case it is not excused, let alone in Cyprus that both communities have suffered.

[bg_turk]

we are all racists piratis. TCs are racists for refusing to live with GCs, mainland greeks are racists for purging macedonia of slavs, croatians are racists for ethnically cleansing Slavonia of serbs, kosovo alabanians are racists for pushing serbs out, turks are racists for expelling bulgarians from east thrace, your government is racist for not allowing TCs back to their properties, yugoslavians are racist for being unable to live together and letting their country disintegrate, etc. etc.
If we use the term racisms in that broad sense then everybody in this world is racist.

[zan]

What I say is that those that support partition and separation of Cypriots are racists. Do you disagree?

Wholeheartedly yes! I believe that separation will be for the better because of the situation, not because I am a racist. I have fought against racists in the past and defended total strangers. I realise that you don’t want me to list the many different races of friends I have but I have to say that my best friend is in fact GC. I have nightmares about how the island will be if reunified. I am sorry but I cannot except that your right to GC property should over ride the need to ensure the safety of all the Cypriots. I do not want to look in the papers and read that GCs are killing TCs and visa versa. I do not want to read day after day how the TCs are not giving back some ones house and that they both have original documents for the same property. It is already happening today with that hotel owner Mr. Kent. None of this reunification lark is going to be as easy as you guys think its going to be. Greed, desperation, nationalism, grudges, resentment, mistrust, disappointment and many other things that you guys are leaving out of the equation will destroy the trust that does exist. A breading ground for more terrorism, which will create more fear. You guys can have all the faith and good intentions in the world but as the old saying goes “the graveyard is full of people with good intentions”.

[bg_turk]

Wholeheartedly yes! I believe that separation will be for the better because of the situation, not because I am a racist. I have fought against racists in the past and defended total strangers. I realise that you don’t want me to list the many different races of friends I have but I have to say that my best friend is in fact GC. I have nightmares about how the island will be if reunified. I am sorry but I cannot except that your right to GC property should over ride the need to ensure the safety of all the Cypriots. I do not want to look in the papers and read that GCs are killing TCs and visa versa. I do not want to read day after day how the TCs are not giving back some ones house and that they both have original documents for the same property. It is already happening today with that hotel owner Mr. Kent. None of this reunification lark is going to be as easy as you guys think its going to be. Greed, desperation, nationalism, grudges, resentment, mistrust, disappointment and many other things that you guys are leaving out of the equation will destroy the trust that does exist. A breading ground for more terrorism, which will create more fear. You guys can have all the faith and good intentions in the world but as the old saying goes “the graveyard is full of people with good intentions”.

I agree with you Zan. The majority of GCs do not want unificaion with TCs for the sake of living together with TCs, they do it because they want their properties back and because of some romantic attachment to their hellenic ancestral land on which TCs will always be considerd foreigners.

We should correct the imbalances that exist today, and try not to impose the whole cost of seperation on GCs, by making some territorial corrections that will alleviate the pain of GC refugees, but eventually partition would be the best solution for both. And in fact I think this is Papadopoulos is trying to avoid a solutiong, he seeks partition and is trying to use EU leverage to demand more concessions from TCs in terms of land.

If some GCs and TCs are too attached to their ancestral homes, then let them return and live in the other state, but forcing the whole communities together, when there is clearly no will for coexistance, would be a recipe for disaster.

[boomerang]

Separation will lead to more racism and hatred...If that happens I can see that the borders will be shut for the next 100 years...Comprimise will lead to forgiveness and that will lead to coexistance...

[Nikiforos]

For those of you advocating separation and partition, would you be willing for the TCs to withdraw to 20% of the land?

Let us say for the sake of argument (NOTE WELL: I DO NOT SUPPORT THIS AT THIS TIME.) that a majority of GCs would agree to partition if TCs withdrew to 20% of the island, who would guarantee the ROC (Greek Nation) from future Turkish military agggression? This would have to be spelled out in detail with iron-clad guarantees from multiple nations including Russia.

If this scenario became reality, the ROC should NOT surrender their veto right to future Turkish and TRNC EU membership.

[zan]

For those of you advocating separation and partition, would you be willing for the TCs to withdraw to 20% of the land?

Let us say for the sake of argument (NOTE WELL: I DO NOT SUPPORT THIS AT THIS TIME.) that a majority of GCs would agree to partition if TCs withdrew to 20% of the island, who would guarantee the ROC (Greek Nation) from future Turkish military agggression? This would have to be spelled out in detail with iron-clad guarantees from multiple nations including Russia.

If this scenario became reality, the ROC should NOT surrender their veto right to future Turkish and TRNC EU membership.

I have no idea what amount of land is needed in order for the TCs to make a go of it. What I do know is that you cannot just throw a figure of 20% at it and hope it is all right. Any deal would have to be made with realities in mind. Agricultural, tourism, growth, housing in fact the entire infrastructure needed for the TCs to survive has to be taken into account for it to work. I never said this would be an easy option, just a safer one. The difference being that the negotiations will be between two governments and not thousands upon thousands of disgruntled people. What is your assurance for Turkey not to attack? A fair deal, which will help the TCs to realise a functioning republic with a little room for improvement. If this figure turns out to be 20% then fantastic but solely in my mind, and I state only in my mind, 30% sounds less like we got a raw deal. That’s just a gut feeling and that too may have to be taken into account. Please realise that there are those that are calling for the entire 100%.

You have to realise that just as the GCs are making a claim to the Island, so are the TCs. We can and probably will now go back into an argument as to which it belongs to unless we realise the realities of the situation. GCs are there and TCs are there. For it to be one or the other by whatever means is unacceptable.

Boomerang wrote

Separation will lead to more racism and hatred...If that happens I can see that the borders will be shut for the next 100 years...Compromise will lead to forgiveness and that will lead to coexistence...

Not if the two governments lead by example. Look, you cannot deny that at the moment both governments are keeping their relative peoples “war ready”. It is the government’s words and teachings that are fuelling most of the hate that is around. If when a two republic Island is formed the people at the top can stop vying for position and show that progress can be made then that is all the new generations will see and will want to be part of. Long live the day when the only reason our children will want to leave the island is because it’s too stable. If in the future those same children want to reunify well, that’s their heresy that perhaps they will look back on and thank their forefathers. I mentioned a little while back about the capital being open to both sides, like a melting pot if you like, and said it tongue in cheek, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea. It will be more like a Hong Kong or a London, a centre for business and clubs and restaurants and homes for those that want that sort of busy life, bright lights and people drinking and socialising together. What better therapy could they possibly want. The only thing I would regret is that I am getting too old to be part of that throbbing crowd.

[cypezokyli]

Long live the day when the only reason our children will want to leave the island is because it’s too stable. If in the future those same children want to reunify well, that’s their heresy that perhaps they will look back on and thank their forefathers. I mentioned a little while back about the capital being open to both sides, like a melting pot if you like, and said it tongue in cheek, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea. It will be more like a Hong Kong or a London, a centre for business and clubs and restaurants and homes for those that want that sort of busy life, bright lights and people drinking and socialising together. What better therapy could they possibly want. The only thing I would regret is that I am getting too old to be part of that throbbing crowd.

hey zan are you sure u r pro-partition?

Look, you cannot deny that at the moment both governments are keeping their relative peoples “war ready”. It is the government’s words and teachings that are fuelling most of the hate that is around

exactly, and thats why it can also work under one state. it is the leaders who lead. and it is their responsibility to keep the island stable