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Things that hurts us....

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Things that hurts us....

Postby insan » Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:28 am

All parades, commemorations, rememberances, monuments, museums, street names and avenues which bears some "heroes" names that hurts each other e.g Grivas, Museum of Greek Barbarism, Museum of Turkish Barbarism, Metaxas, Ataturk must be put in one package as a whole and discussed by two communities in order to find out a solution that doesn't hurt or hurts less members of each communities...

Otherwise all must be let free and respected by all parties... This would be yet another absurdity of Cyprus... I think we have enough...
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Postby GaAs » Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:29 pm

I don't like Grivas any more than you do. :)
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Postby X-ite » Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:38 pm

The difference between us is that we condemn the junta, the coup etc. whereas you celebrate the invasion...
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Postby Piratis » Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:49 pm

X-ite wrote:The difference between us is that we condemn the junta, the coup etc. whereas you celebrate the invasion...


I agree. It is just another thing that proves that for your administration and Turkey the parition of Cyprus is something to celebrate about.
It is clear that the aim of those people is not re-unification.

I agree that having names with Grivas name is bad, but celebrating the invasion in the most official way is way worst.
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Postby insan » Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:49 pm

I'm not trying to justify the celebrations take place every year on 20th of July as it is acknowledged by TCs a full end of intercommunal violence, oppression and fears...

I know it hurts GCs because 1/3 of GCs lost their loved ones, properties and hopes because of Turkeys intervention/invasion(I'm trying not to hurt anyone though definitions aren't important for someone like me)...

May God rest their souls all who lost their lives under command of stupid idiots that obliged to fight and retaliate each others anti-democratic, inhumane, illegal, primitive actions...

I still questioning the intervention/invasion of 1974...



It is said and believed by some that the coup and Turkish intervention was a US sponsored plot...The consequences of July 1974 and backwards evidences don't verify this... Either Turkey made a mistake or the concerned parties changed their plans afterwards the events of 74.

Or their plans was "innocent" as it can easily be proved by Denktash-Klerides letters of 1967-71 period but Grivas himself played the killjoy I assume.

There are several US library of congress reports which indicates Grivases improper actions against US policy and Greek Junta...

Remember that he was called by Athens in 1967 and secretly returned back to Cyprus to establish EOKA-B.

Perhaps his priority was to browbeat Makarios and leftists in order to make them change their policies and support Enosis. Leftists by leadership of Makarios were very strong in that era and was being supported by USSR...

I believe that Makarios had really changed his policy in 1967 when he publicly declared that Enosis wasn't feasible anymore... Thta's why inter communal strife could had been stopped for a while and no inter communal violence took place between the years 1967-71 till Grivases secret return to Cyprus....

It was hard for TCs to trust Makarios who once was a feary defender of Enosis and then declared that Enosis wasn't feasible anymore... Furthermore, he was still under enforcement of ultra nationalist GCs and Greek Junta...

And it is highly probable that US passiveness against ultra nationalists and Greek Junta had arised from their anti-communist stance... It is clear that, in that cold war era US allowed some marigin to Grivases extreme actions because his anti-communist actions serving USes interests...

I don't think the division of Cyprus was in US plan. Remeber in 1967 they prevented the strongly probable Turkish intervention which the Turkish government of that era was seriously decisive to intervene...

In 1967 Turkish intervention posponed, Grivas was called by Athens, Makarios publicly declared that Enosis wasn't feasible anymore, intercommunal strife had stopped and negotiations among Denktash and Klerides was going well...

Wasn't that US who provided this climate? What had changed then in 1971 when Grivas secretly returned Cyprus and established EOKA-B?

GC ultra right wings anger to left wing and strong desire for Enosis invited him to Cyprus?


It's really very very hard for me to believe that Grivas and N. Sampson and some other who involved with Enosis cause through their life time accepted the so-called US partition policy to achieve the double Enosis...

Were leftist GCs also informed about the partition plan? Apparently neither Makarios nor those who lost their lifes during the coup were informed about it...

And double Enosis was something they would alvays have fought against...

Please don't misunderstand me... my intention isn't making dispute over this issue but trying to understand..

What excatly was US plan in 1974?

Let's say that Turkey had behaved accordingly, what would happen then?

How would partition be achieved?

Both communities majorly were living mixed on the Island....


If US intention was partitioning Island via Sampson coup why didn't Sampson declare and invite Turkey for partitioning negotiations right after the coup or at least on 19th of July?


I'll be much appreciated to hear your opinions....
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Postby mehmet » Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:27 pm

there are many thoughts about the events of 1974. Another one is that US supported overthrow of Makarios becaues he was too close to USSR and Non-aligned bloc, also he had support of Communists (as AKEL was percieved by USA). Between 15-20 July Ecevit try to involve UK in joint action to overthrow EOKA sponsored coup. UK Prime Minister and Foreign Minister don't give a shit about the lives of Turksih Cypriots or Greek Cypriots for that matter. All they care about is their bases. For some reason they also got very excited about the airport during the period between July 20 and the end of Turkish military operation.

It doesn't seem to me that US backed Turkey. If you read Mehmet Ali Birand's book '30 hot days' you will read account of very agitated US diplomats putting pressure on Turkey throughout that period. The other problem for US was that EOKA didn't kill Makarios, therefore there was the possibility that he would return (he did).

My own understanding is that when Turkey invaded and Greek government fell the US had to reappraise the situation because I don't believe they expected Ecevit to send soldiers in. They thought Turkey would again back down like they did in 1967.

The other thing to remember is that Ecevit wasn't popular with US, he was percieved as left wing and he had stuck two fingers up to the US when they try to tell Turkey what to do about heroin trade.
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Postby metecyp » Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:41 pm

The difference between us is that we condemn the junta, the coup etc. whereas you celebrate the invasion...

I see your point but at the same time, I have to remind you that things are not black and white. For example, my mother's village was surrounded by GC (that lived in other villages nearby) and Greek soldiers right after July 20th. And my grandfather and uncle were taken prisoners and treated inhumanely. My grandfather's shop (he has a grocery shop in the village) was emptied by GC soldiers. Anyway, that village was freed and people's lives were saved by the "invasion" forces. I'm sure there are many stories like this all around the north of the island. Now, do you really want my grandfather or my uncle condemn the "invasion" that saved their lives?

At the same time, I do understand that GCs lost a lot in 1974. So I don't feel right about celebrating something that caused so much human sufferring either. It's not right to have one day where one side of Cyprus celebrates and the other side cries for the loss. That's the problem and if we really want to find a solution, we have to start celebrating together and more importantly we have to start crying together for the losses.
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Postby insan » Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:52 pm

That's the problem and if we really want to find a solution, we have to start celebrating together and more importantly we have to start crying together for the losses.



I totally agree with you....
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Postby Piratis » Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:48 pm

It is said and believed by some that the coup and Turkish intervention was a US sponsored plot


I believe it was. I don't know if everything went according to plan for the US, or if something was planned a bit differently. I believe according to the plan the Turkish troops were not supposed to occupy Famagusta (but apparently they could not resist when they saw that there was no resistance).

The US feared that Cyprus could become "the small Cuba of Mediterranean". Turkey was obviously on the US side during the cold war, and Greece was governed by puppets of the US at that time. Something like double enosis is what was probably in their plans. One thing that probably went a bit wrong for the Americans was that the junta fall right after the invasion.
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Postby mehmet » Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:12 pm

[quote="Piratis"][
The US feared that Cyprus could become "the small Cuba of Mediterranean". Turkey was obviously on the US side during the cold war, and Greece was governed by puppets of the US at that time.

I don't know about double enosis in US plans. I do believe Cyprus being part of a right wing military controlled Greece was very much in their interests. Whilst Klerides and Denktas were meeting Greece had other plans. Greece might have had US support for their actions. The fall of Greek government wasn't part of their plan. The Government fell when Ionnides order the army to invade Turkey and they refuse. Once Greek military lose power I believe the US had to make choice. With the possibility that Makarios would return they prefer Turkey to stay in Cyprus as security that Cyprus wouldn't become 'little Cuba'. It's not a rational expectation but little about US actions is anyway.
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