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NOW FOR SOMETHING ENTIRELY CONSTRUCTIVE...

Propose and discuss specific solutions to aspects of the Cyprus Problem

Postby BirKibrisli » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:33 pm

Piratis wrote:Republic of Cyprus has proposed that Varoshia should be returned and the Famagusta port operated by both GCs and TCs under UN supervision. If you are interested in steps towards a solution, then accept the proposal.

If you are interested to end all your problems at once then make a proposal that will end all our problems at once as well.


The ICG obviously believe the two sides might find it easier to accept proposals coming from independent international sources...You already told us you think these suggestions are not well balanced,they would remove certain GC leverages...But what is the point if these leverages will not be effective anyway...Isn't it better to start with a clean sheet,make the above consessions,and see where that will take us???
Doing nothing is taking us nowhere fast... :roll:
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Re: NOW FOR SOMETHING ENTIRELY CONSTRUCTIVE...

Postby Paphitis » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:36 pm

BirKibrisli wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
Piratis wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:Okey folks,put your constructive,positive caps on and lets discuss,hopefully with an open mind and heart,the latest report on Cyprus by the ICG....


Crisis Group has detailed in four reports since 2006 how the interests of the 1.1 million Cypriots and outside parties would be best met with a comprehensive political settlement. This remains the ideal, but as it is unrealistic in the coming months, the sides should move ahead with unilateral steps such as the following, each of which could build confidence and help establish an environment more conducive to an overall agreement:

•Turkey should open its ports and airports to Greek Cypriot sea and air traffic, meeting its signed 2005 obligation to implement the Additional Protocol to its EU Customs Union, and also permit Greek Cypriot aircraft to transit its airspace.
•Greek Cypriots should allow the port of Famagusta to handle Cypriot (including Turkish Cypriot) trade with the EU, under Turkish Cypriot management and EU supervision; end their practice of blocking Turkey’s EU negotiating chapters; and, in the event of trade beginning with Turkey after it implements the Additional Protocol, open up the Green Line to the passage of Turkish goods so that Turkish Cypriots can also benefit.
•Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots should hand back property in the Turkish-military controlled ghost resort of Varosha to its Greek Cypriot owners, subject to a UN interim regime that oversees reconstruction.
•Greek Cypriots should allow charter flights to Ercan Airport in the Turkish Cypriot zone, monitored by the EU.
•Turkey, Greece, the UK and the two Cypriot communities should put in place a mechanism to verify troop numbers on the island. Similarly, the Turkish Cypriot leadership should organise with Greek Cypriots a census to determine the exact population of the island and the legal status of its inhabitants.
•Greek Cypriots should cooperate with Turkish Cypriot administrative entities, pending a political settlement. Turkish officials should meet with Greek Cypriot officials, and Turkish Cypriots should be supportive.
•The European Commission, supported by the EU Presidency, should continue to serve as an honest broker to secure agreement on interim steps. Leaders of EU member states should avoid partisan statements at a time when UN talks continue and no one party is being clearly obstructive.



http://www.crisisgroup.org/en/regions/e ... ement.aspx


First of all all we should point out that what is asked from Turkey is just part of what Turkey is already obligated to do, while our side is not obligated to do anything from what is asked to.

The second thing is to ask: "Then what?"

Turkey is occupying the north part of our country and we need to have some leverage to motivate Turkey and TCs to accept a solution that would liberate Cyprus from the Turkish occupation. What will this leverage be if we accept the above proposals?

The third thing is that even the one point that could make us consider the above proposals, that of Famagusta, is watered down to such a degree that is not so interesting any more. It is talking about giving back to GCs their properties, but not about allowing RoC to take back control of the city. It also talks about UN interim regime to "oversee reconstruction"(???). We are perfectly capable to "oversee reconstruction" ourselves, and since this is a place where TCs have not settled, the city can be given back immediately and directly to RoC. The only reason why this is not proposed is that while ICG wants to remove all our bargaining chips, they don't want to remove even a single one from Turkey.

Therefore these proposals are totally imbalanced on the favor of Turkey, which is what is expected by ICG. The co-founder of ICG, Morton Abramowitz, has been an ambassador to Turkey and he even wrote a book promoting a pro-Turkish American policy.

Turkey should give back Varosha and open its ports and airspace to Cyprus (which is part of what Turkey is obligated to do) and in return we will allow EU chapters to open and direct trade from the port of Famagusta for both GCs and TCs, which will be under UN management. This is a more balanced proposal.


Piratis,you know well that in conflicts like this you cannot sit down and try to balance everything to the nth degree...There has to be compromises and the sides need to make goodwill gestures to foster an atmosphere more conductive to a peaceful settlement...If you try nitpicking you afe only putting obstacles in the way,and everything stops before they get started..This has been the history of our conflict....The ICG is trying to get the two sides to take small steps that will leed to big ones down the road...But obviously you are not interested in any steps towards a solution,big or small... :(


There is no goodwill from Turkey or the TCs!

There are no compromises from Turkey or the TCs. There are no apologies from Turkey or the TCs.

So the RoC is already 3-0 up at half time!

Your turn!


We are discussing these ICG proposals now...If you would like to contribute,tell us what objections you have to these suggestions being adapted all at once, by both sides...


It is your side that would be the first to reject these proposals out of hand to begin with!

But any proposals which allow foreign troops is something I don't take seriously!
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Postby Piratis » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:03 pm

BirKibrisli wrote:
Piratis wrote:Republic of Cyprus has proposed that Varoshia should be returned and the Famagusta port operated by both GCs and TCs under UN supervision. If you are interested in steps towards a solution, then accept the proposal.

If you are interested to end all your problems at once then make a proposal that will end all our problems at once as well.


The ICG obviously believe the two sides might find it easier to accept proposals coming from independent international sources...You already told us you think these suggestions are not well balanced,they would remove certain GC leverages...But what is the point if these leverages will not be effective anyway...Isn't it better to start with a clean sheet,make the above consessions,and see where that will take us???
Doing nothing is taking us nowhere fast... :roll:


These leverage have an effect. If they didn't then neither TCs nor Turkey would bother. They would go back in telling us that the Cyprus problem was solved in 1974, as they did until Cyprus joined the EU and Turkey realized that the Cyprus Problem is a problem for her as well.

Turkey keeps 37% of our land, and we keep the keys to the progress of their EU accession and the prosperity of both TCs and Turks. If you want all your problems to be solved then you have to agree on a solution that will solve all our problems as well.
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Postby BirKibrisli » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:31 am

I found this article in Zaman to be rather sensible and objective...


The ICG reiterates the following:

“If the status quo continues, Greek Cypriots will find that their rejection of the EU-backed UN peace plan in 2004 has led to deepening partition; Turkish Cypriots that their choice of a hard-line nationalist as president in April 2010 makes their territory little more than a backwater of Turkey; Ankara that its failure to come to terms with the Greek Cypriots will freeze its EU accession, hurting its reform agenda, prosperity and regional attractiveness; and Greece that it is condemned to high defense budgets and indefinite tensions with Turkey over Aegean Sea demarcation. Finally, the EU will find its soft power diminished by lack of a healthy relationship with its most significant Muslim partner and that Cyprus will remain an awkward symbol of inability to solve the political and military division even of a member state.”

Joost Lagendijk’s call on Ankara to change its policies, published in this paper the other day, was in essence right. “…please keep an eye on the political and economic realities of today and tomorrow. They clearly indicate that self-delusion can easily turn self-destructive. Better change tactics sooner rather than later,” he wrote.

True, but the question is whether the positionally superior Greek Cypriot leadership will ever pay attention to the fine proposals by the ICG, and if Ankara still sees any sincere perspective in the EU and value in an unwanted membership. The EU, instrumentalized by Greek Cyprus, insists on a fruitless unilateral approach that undermines the UN process. It leaves us with the free will of Turkish Cypriots. What do they want and why? They should make it utterly clear, although they know bitterly that their views mean nothing to the EU.




http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist-23 ... yprus.html
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Postby BirKibrisli » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:10 am

And this from the horse's mouth...

But even the tenacious troubleshooters at the ICG had to come to the conclusion that an ideal solution is not on offer today. Instead of giving up on Cyprus, the ICG last week came up with a proposal that tries to overcome the present stalemate. The paper calls for unilateral steps from both Turkey and Greek Cypriots to build confidence that is crucial now to finding an overall agreement later. Key elements of the balanced package include recommendations that Turkey should open its ports and airports to Greek Cypriot sea and air traffic, and meet its 2005 obligation to implement the Additional Protocol to its EU customs union, while Greek Cypriots should allow the port of Famagusta to handle Cypriot, including Turkish Cypriot, trade with the EU, allow charter flights to Ercan Airport and end their practice of blocking Turkey’s EU negotiating chapters.

The ICG realizes very well that all of these steps have been discussed before but failed because they were bundled into top-heavy negotiated packages, with each side conditioning its one step for every two by its counterparts. It is obvious that in the Cyprus context package deals have little chance. Unilateral gestures did work in the past and, according to the ICG, they could be successful again because they address known needs of both communities, fulfill pledges made by Turkey and the EU in the past and do not prejudice the ultimate outcome of future talks.




http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist-23 ... -dont.html
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Postby boomerang » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:29 am

hey pendjo did you read the readers comments?...here they are...

Code: Select all
O. Levent , 05 March 2011 , 05:44 
I speak on behalf of many Turkish Cypriots when I say we want the Turkish troops to leave Cyprus. We want the settlers to go. And we want Turkey to go and to take its policies with it. Turkey has brought nothing but suffering, poverty and isolation to the Turkish Cypriot community. We do not want to be treated like a province of Anatolia. We are Cypriots. Not Turks. So it's time to go. We don't believe that Turkey has our interests at heart. The Greek Cypriots would not treat us with the contempt Turkey shows. Everything has changed.


Hulya Guner , 04 March 2011 , 14:04
The first thing Turkey did in 1974 was to strip all the ex Greek factories of machinery and ship it al to Turkey. It then gave away all the ex Greek hotels to mainland Turkish companies. Whilst Turkish Cypriots were not allowed to settle in Turkey in the ensuing years, the penniless hordes from Eastern Turkey flooded into our country. Over 50% of Turkish Cypriots are university graduates yet many are unemployed. Add to this Turkey's own embargoes against North Cyprus which condemns us to eternal dependence! And you wonder why we have had enough???


jahitty , 04 March 2011 , 14:03
As a TC we need to look in the mirror and honestly choose between the ROC and Turkey. We need to through civil institutions, trade unions, NGO's take ownership of the negotiations. We need to march together time calling for open and honest talks of fedaration within the framework of the UN and debate the 1960/63 ROC constitution. This must be done without interference from outside powers. The Annan plan was unjust and unfair, it would have caused problems between the Cypriots in the future because it favoured Turkey.


Orhan , 04 March 2011 , 05:34
I'll tell you what Turkish Cypriots want. We want Turkish troops to leave Cyprus. We want Turkey to stop sending settlers and criminals to the island. We want to live in a federal state united with the Greek Cypriots and for all displaced persons to be allowed to return to their homes. We want above all for Turkey to stop interfering in our affairs. We don't want your money anymore.


Yaacov , 04 March 2011 , 07:10
Trying to blame the unrest in north Cyprus on 'encouragement' from Greek Cypriots is laughable. Turkey's policies on Cyprus have been illegal, unethical and self-defeating. What we are seeing is the predictable result of decades of mindless Turkish nationalism as policy in north Cyprus. And like most policies based strictly on nationalist mindest it's a disaster. It will only get worse. Turkey must withdraw it's troops and settlers from north Cyprus and allow reunification. Anything else is nonsense.
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Postby boomerang » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:39 am

BirKibrisli wrote:And this from the horse's mouth...

But even the tenacious troubleshooters at the ICG had to come to the conclusion that an ideal solution is not on offer today. Instead of giving up on Cyprus, the ICG last week came up with a proposal that tries to overcome the present stalemate. The paper calls for unilateral steps from both Turkey and Greek Cypriots to build confidence that is crucial now to finding an overall agreement later. Key elements of the balanced package include recommendations that Turkey should open its ports and airports to Greek Cypriot sea and air traffic, and meet its 2005 obligation to implement the Additional Protocol to its EU customs union, while Greek Cypriots should allow the port of Famagusta to handle Cypriot, including Turkish Cypriot, trade with the EU, allow charter flights to Ercan Airport and end their practice of blocking Turkey’s EU negotiating chapters.

The ICG realizes very well that all of these steps have been discussed before but failed because they were bundled into top-heavy negotiated packages, with each side conditioning its one step for every two by its counterparts. It is obvious that in the Cyprus context package deals have little chance. Unilateral gestures did work in the past and, according to the ICG, they could be successful again because they address known needs of both communities, fulfill pledges made by Turkey and the EU in the past and do not prejudice the ultimate outcome of future talks.




http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist-23 ... -dont.html


continuing the article...from the horse's mouth...

I am sure that the usual suspects will come up with the same worn-out arguments against any steps by Turkey. They will rightfully criticize the Greek Cypriots and the EU and conclude that Turkey should not budge now. The problem overlooked by all these staunch defenders of Turkey’s refusal to move is that neither Turkey nor the Turkish Cypriots have any long-term interest in the status quo. The Turkish part of Cyprus will remain little more than a backwater of Turkey. By refusing to come to terms with the Greek Cypriots, Ankara will freeze its EU accession and will hurt its own reform agenda, prosperity and regional attractiveness.

I am happy the ICG is both clever and stubborn enough to keep reminding Turkey that being stuck on Cyprus is extremely problematic. Yes, it sounds very tough to proclaim that Cyprus is more important for Turkey than the EU. But please keep an eye on the political and economic realities of today and tomorrow. They clearly indicate that self-delusion can easily turn self-destructive. Better change tactics sooner rather than later.


http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist-237041-unilateral-gestures-work-package-deals-dont.html


the question here is why birturk only posted half and not the whole article?...could it be he did't like what he was reading?...
Last edited by boomerang on Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby bill cobbett » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:46 am

boomerang wrote:hey pendjo did you read the readers comments?...here they are...

Code: Select all
O. Levent , 05 March 2011 , 05:44 
I speak on behalf of many Turkish Cypriots when I say we want the Turkish troops to leave Cyprus. We want the settlers to go. And we want Turkey to go and to take its policies with it. Turkey has brought nothing but suffering, poverty and isolation to the Turkish Cypriot community. We do not want to be treated like a province of Anatolia. We are Cypriots. Not Turks. So it's time to go. We don't believe that Turkey has our interests at heart. The Greek Cypriots would not treat us with the contempt Turkey shows. Everything has changed.


Hulya Guner , 04 March 2011 , 14:04
The first thing Turkey did in 1974 was to strip all the ex Greek factories of machinery and ship it al to Turkey. It then gave away all the ex Greek hotels to mainland Turkish companies. Whilst Turkish Cypriots were not allowed to settle in Turkey in the ensuing years, the penniless hordes from Eastern Turkey flooded into our country. Over 50% of Turkish Cypriots are university graduates yet many are unemployed. Add to this Turkey's own embargoes against North Cyprus which condemns us to eternal dependence! And you wonder why we have had enough???


jahitty , 04 March 2011 , 14:03
As a TC we need to look in the mirror and honestly choose between the ROC and Turkey. We need to through civil institutions, trade unions, NGO's take ownership of the negotiations. We need to march together time calling for open and honest talks of fedaration within the framework of the UN and debate the 1960/63 ROC constitution. This must be done without interference from outside powers. The Annan plan was unjust and unfair, it would have caused problems between the Cypriots in the future because it favoured Turkey.


Orhan , 04 March 2011 , 05:34
I'll tell you what Turkish Cypriots want. We want Turkish troops to leave Cyprus. We want Turkey to stop sending settlers and criminals to the island. We want to live in a federal state united with the Greek Cypriots and for all displaced persons to be allowed to return to their homes. We want above all for Turkey to stop interfering in our affairs. We don't want your money anymore.


Yaacov , 04 March 2011 , 07:10
Trying to blame the unrest in north Cyprus on 'encouragement' from Greek Cypriots is laughable. Turkey's policies on Cyprus have been illegal, unethical and self-defeating. What we are seeing is the predictable result of decades of mindless Turkish nationalism as policy in north Cyprus. And like most policies based strictly on nationalist mindest it's a disaster. It will only get worse. Turkey must withdraw it's troops and settlers from north Cyprus and allow reunification. Anything else is nonsense.


Some interesting comments there mate.

The one from our Jahitty hit home with me when he/she says the CYs of the occupied north need to take over ownership of the talks.
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Postby boomerang » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:49 am

i think they are all good BC...a reflection of what was brewing for a while...i think with the roc entry into the eu as representing the whole island, was the catalyst...the tcs are realising they ain't gonna get recognition, stagnate further into oblivion, and they are gonna get swamped by settlers eroding their culture...

by the way where is VP the mouth piece of all the tcs these days?... :lol:
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Postby bill cobbett » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:24 am

boomerang wrote:i think they are all good BC...a reflection of what was brewing for a while...i think with the roc entry into the eu as representing the whole island, was the catalyst...the tcs are realising they ain't gonna get recognition, stagnate further into oblivion, and they are gonna get swamped by settlers eroding their culture...

by the way where is VP the mouth piece of all the tcs these days?... :lol:


VP? last seen stocking up his/her lifeboat in Kyrenia Harbour.

But signals mate, not getting enough signals from enough people, signals on movements from the same old tired negotiating positions... signals to convince people in the Free Areas of motives and an end game... oh sod it... you've got me thinking now ...
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